Keeping Score - Learning How To Count

[BIGEarl]

What determines the date of a hike? Is it the date when the hike starts or the date when the hike ends?

I understand the hair-splitting involved in defining a hike for credit to the Winter 4K’s, but this is different.

As an example, if someone climbs Mt. Washington on New Years Eve to be on the summit for the change from one year to the next and then descends, is the hike a December hike or a January hike?

 

[kaseri]

For a multi day hike in winter my only concern would be the date and time of the finish. Winter "rules" state that one must complete any given hike before the Spring Equinox. In terms of the start of winter I'm only concerned with starting up the trail after the Winter solstice.

 

[BIGEarl]

I probably should have used a different example. This is not a "winter" question at all.

For someone completing a Grid for a particular list, If a hike starts in one month and ends in another month, what is the "date" that should be assigned to the hike? Is it the starting date or ending date?

I realize most hikes are completed the same day they start. There are times when we are above the treeline after dark to enjoy the night time views and return to the trailhead after midnight. In other words, we start on one date and finish on another. Which is the date of record for the hike, start date or end date?

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

An interesting question that has no official answer, as no official group is in charge of the grid.

The AMC FTFC rules for a winter hike is that it both starts and ends in winter. so I would suggest that a January hike must both start and end in January. So a hike that starts in December and ends in January may be a nice hike, but it belongs to neither month.

We all know the value of free advice, take the above with as many grains of salt as appropriate. But please think about the issues raised before dismissing them.

 

[evilhanz]

My interpretation of the unofficial rules is that a trip must begin and end in the time period you want credit for, whether it's a winter hike, a night hike, a grid hike, or whatever game you happen to be playing. A hike to a summit that begins on 12/31 and ends on 1/1 wouldn't count for either month, IMHO.

 

[Tom Rankin]

My interpretation of the unofficial rules is that a trip must begin and end in the time period you want credit for, whether it's a winter hike, a night hike, a grid hike, or whatever game you happen to be playing. A hike to a summit that begins on 12/31 and ends on 1/1 wouldn't count for either month, IMHO.

Or, you could record it for the date you reached each summit.

 

[DrJJFate]

Or, you could record it for the date you reached each summit.

That's what I was thinking as well.

 

[nartreb]

The 48x12 site references the "Underhill rules". Those state that a hike begins and ends at trailheads, so my interpretation (which accords with the rules for the Winter game) is that a hike must begin and and within a given time period to count towards that time period.

 

[BIGEarl]

I would assume the gridding of any list, NH48, NE67, NEHH, NH Fire Lookout Towers, or any of the others would respect the rules of that particular list.

I wasn't aware of anything beyond the start and end requirement for a "winter" hike being completely within calendar winter. Evidently there isn't.

The logic that says a hike must start and end within the period for which it is being recorded for credit seems to make sense. Claiming date credit based on achieving the summit also seems to make sense, assuming all other rules of the game are respected.

Hmmm....

Still

 

[dclynch]

More worlds to conquer!

I think you have defined another category for the grid!

An overnight hike to each summit started on the last day of one month and finished the first day of the next. (One could try to do it for each monthly transition, but that would take a while.)

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

Hmmm....

Still

Think, then make your own decision. This is not a major moral issue. Miriam Underhill wrote:

This game was an offshoot, of course, of that very popular game of the Appalachian Mountain Club, Climbing the Four-thousanders, which was set in motion, and such vigorous and enthusiastic motion, in 1958. Our game —"ours" because we were the first to play it— followed right along. As the initiators we set the rules, which concerned the definition of "winter".

Note the repeated use of the word "game".

Let me get personal.

I have stood on the summit of every NH 4K in calendar winter, but have not applied for the patch.

Our group believed that the rules included something along the lines of "... with no assistance." On my Bonds Epic there is a detail I did not publish. I wrote:

The descent was slow but uneventful, we eventually were met by our two friends just below the lowest brook crossing. Both the hot drinks and the food were very welcome, and thus refreshed we were able to complete the trip back to the trailhead.

I did not add that one of them carried my pack out.

By our definition the peak did not count; I had received substantial assistance. A year or so later I started to reconsider. I wrote a long email to Gene Daniell, then the Recording Secretary (as well as Chair) of the FTFC. He replied that there was no rule about assistance, and that there were several completers who, because of back or other problems, always had someone else carry their pack.

At the end of that email, however, he said that ultimately what mattered was what I thought was right.

I wanted that patch ... but deep inside me I felt that I had not earned it. I am too old and unfit to have a reasonable chance of doing Bond again in winter (I have bagged Bondcliff and West Bond on other trips). So I will live without that patch.

My choice, your mileage will vary

 

[BIGEarl]

I think you have defined another category for the grid!

An overnight hike to each summit started on the last day of one month and finished the first day of the next. (One could try to do it for each monthly transition, but that would take a while.)

That's funny!

I'm not trying to introduce anything new, just get a little detail on what's already in place and make sure I respect the rules properly.

 

[Chip]

I wanted that patch ... but deep inside me I felt that I had not earned it. I am too old and unfit to have a reasonable chance of doing Bond again in winter (I have bagged Bondcliff and West Bond on other trips). So I will live without that patch.

(Thread Hyjack Apology)

Holy Cr@p, Man. This WILL NOT STAND ! I say we cherry pick a warm winter day, send a couple of these young bucks out ahead to break trail, and get this thing done. Team VFTT will stand behind (and walk in front of) you !

 

[RoySwkr]

The logic that says a hike must start and end within the period for which it is being recorded for credit seems to make sense. Claiming date credit based on achieving the summit also seems to make sense, assuming all other rules of the game are respected.

I would probably choose the first for NH 4k related stuff such as the grid, but many other groups don't use the "climb and descend" rule so the 2nd makes sense. The state highpointers for instance just require you to stand on the summit, so if you are there at midnight you could count both days

By our definition the peak did not count; I had received substantial assistance. A year or so later I started to reconsider. I wrote a long email to Gene Daniell, then the Recording Secretary (as well as Chair) of the FTFC. He replied that there was no rule about assistance, and that there were several completers who, because of back or other problems, always had someone else carry their pack.

Besides kids who may never carry a pack, many people benefit from stronger companions or eat dinners at huts that were flown in by helicopter. In your case, somebody else carried your pack partway out - would you feel differently if you had just abandoned the heaviest gear in the woods? On a finishing hike last year, I gave Reeses candy to a dozen peakbaggers on the summit - does this disqualify them for receiving "assistance" and me for receiving assistance not having to carry the excess candy down?

I'm not sure that I have ever done a winter peak truly unassisted, even when hiking solo in fresh snow the trail was probably broken out underneath. Using somebody else's tracks up Owls Head is far more help than carrying a pack a few miles downhill. But I'm sorry you're not feeling up for a visit to Bond to put this story to bed.

 

[bobandgeri]

Mohamed - you've earned the patch!

Earl - why not ask HikerEd?

 

[BIGEarl]

.....
Earl - why not ask HikerEd?

I probably should send a question in his direction to get his opinion as well. Since there is no official rule in place it is nothing more than an opinion. It seems that everybody is left to their own judgement on how to keep score.

I was interested in getting multiple views on the question. That's the reason for the thread.

 

[Amicus]

End Nightism!

This "rule" that a hike, to signify anything, must start and end within the arbitrary 24-hour period marked by 12:00 a.m. demonstrates yet again society's disdain for those of us who prefer to or, perhaps, must confine our hiking to that time between the setting and the rising of - that infernal orb.

 

[BIGEarl]

The basic question concerned the date of a hike that covered more than one calendar day. After thinking about it I realized there is little difference between a day hike that drags into the next day versus a backpacking trip. Both are multi-day. I believe the simple answer would be in-line with the record-keeping that is normally used for backpacking trips.

I assume the date that is recorded is the date the summit is reached, which may be different from the start or end date for the hike. That's just an assumption.

Is there a standard approach for peak score keeping on backpacking trips?

 

[Roxi]

I have stood on the summit of every NH 4K in calendar winter, but have not applied for the patch.

Our group believed that the rules included something along the lines of "... with no assistance." On my Bonds Epic there is a detail I did not publish. I did not add that one of them carried my pack out.

By our definition the peak did not count; I had received substantial assistance. A year or so later I started to reconsider. I wrote a long email to Gene Daniell, then the Recording Secretary (as well as Chair) of the FTFC. He replied that there was no rule about assistance, and that there were several completers who, because of back or other problems, always had someone else carry their pack.

At the end of that email, however, he said that ultimately what mattered was what I thought was right.

I wanted that patch ... but deep inside me I felt that I had not earned it. I am too old and unfit to have a reasonable chance of doing Bond again in winter (I have bagged Bondcliff and West Bond on other trips). So I will live without that patch.

My choice, your mileage will vary

Unless someone carried you out, I don't understand why this peak wouldn't have counted. There's no rule that says you even have to have a pack with you, no rule about accepting food from others and no rule about assistance. So if you hiked to the peak and back within winter, it seems it should count....besides, "games" are supposed to be fun!

 

[RoySwkr]

I assume the date that is recorded is the date the summit is reached, which may be different from the start or end date for the hike. That's just an assumption.

Is there a standard approach for peak score keeping on backpacking trips?

I think this has been previously discussed here and elsewhere

Certainly you record the summit on the date you were there, but it would not be unusual to reach the same summit more than once on a trip. Do you record it more than once?

If for some reason you are trying to count the number of dates you have stood on the summit, then you should record each date. If you are trying to record the number of hikes to the summit, you should (IMHO) record only one date of your choice.

The AMC requires you to ascend and descend a peak within calendar winter to count it for winter, so you may choose to apply this standard to other NH lists. Other clubs have more lenient definitions of winter, and may not require you to descend or even to ascend, and it makes sense to apply their standards to their lists.