Lafayette Place and Old Bridle Path Parking Fees proposed

[peakbagger]

This popped up on the Salmons Falls Website.

http://www.newhampshirelakesandmoun...-fees-may-be-required-in-Franconia-Notch.html

Nothing in there proposes expanding the parking at either lot, it makes sense that if folks that are taking the shuttle need to pay that those using the lot should also be paying. My guess is hut guests paying for an overnight at Greenleaf will not care much either way. It doesn't deal with the occasional overflow situation at the Basin. My guess is it will really cut down on the families who like to hike just up to the water falls on Falling Waters and the very popular family hike to Lonesome Lake.

The down side with a shuttle is it it concentrates usage to a smaller window corresponding to the shuttle hours. I encountered folks with headlamps hiking up the breakdown lane to the tram lot and possibly the shuttle lot when the shuttle was in operation in 2019 (and parking enforcement went on full aggressive mode) . I am unsure if it was related to hikers parking at the tram lot or late hikers who missed the last shuttle, but my guess is it was a mix. No matter what the reason a very dumb thing to do given the speeds and clearances.

Note Phil Bryce seems to have become the "pay to play" advocate of the NHPRD given his proposal on the Mt Washington Summit fees.

 

[maineguy]

This popped up on the Salmons Falls Website.

http://www.newhampshirelakesandmoun...-fees-may-be-required-in-Franconia-Notch.html

Nothing in there proposes expanding the parking at either lot, it makes sense that if folks that are taking the shuttle need to pay that those using the lot should also be paying.

People riding the shuttle are arriving at/after 8:30 in the morning. The "penalty" for that is having to ride the shuttle. If they want to park in one of the trailhead parking areas they need to get to those lots a LOT earlier. If they can't, then take the shuttle. The shuttle loses money? ...raise the price. If people park in NO PARKING spots on the highway, tow them.

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

I am in favor of parking fees at the most popular trailheads. That will somewhat deter the long-standing high traffic on these trails, which are being trampled into muddy chaos. As someone who has worked on the Old Bridle Path since 1982, I have seen the erosion accelerate over a few decades. Such paths need frequent upkeep, both tending (level 1) and fixtures (level 2).
The fees will probably go into the NH State Park general fund, with nothing for trail repair or upkeep, but at least some hikers will go park where there is no charge. Once the USFS started what they called the 'fee pilot' program in the early 2000s, people wanting to park for free clustered at NH state park lots. The State lost a gold mine of parking fees and tow charges over more than a decade. They got all the goodwill and hiker dollars in the economy, though.
Where Parks money should be spent is a separate discussion, although USFS experience was that parking fees were paid willingly enough if people could see some benefit to themselves. To help that, the USFS published annual reports for the WMNF that included color photos and pie charts of income and outgo. Those were also posted at trailheads on kiosks, at visitor info centers etc. Much of what money was raised was actually spent on trail infrastructure, and that was emphasized in the annual reports.

 

[NHClimber]

I don't know what the rights answer is but note that increasing fees discriminates against those unable to afford them, leading to elitist hiker syndrome.

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

I am not sure of the right answer either. However, anyone who can afford to drive their car to a trailhead can also afford a 5$ parking fee. Pay-to-play does mean that trail users (of these optional trails ie not needed for survival any more than we 'need' liquor) can contribute towards upkeep of the trails they use. Consider why there are tolls and gas taxes. The principle is well established, and accepted by most of the public.

 

[peakbagger]

Keep in mind that the state has started planning for a Tram Rebuild or Replacement that is will cost tens of millions for repair and 100s for replacement and two years lost revenue. That will be a capital upgrade where the money comes from state coffers (and most likely Sunapee revenues). The shuttle costs are operating capital that has to come out of the Franconia Notch State Park budget. Two very different pockets.

There is also a matter of parking enforcement, I am unsure if a typical state employee can write a legal ticket. Does this mean bringing in a state trooper to write tickets?. No doubt a high priority

Would the parking pass include any Hike Safe coverage?. Logically those parking or shuttling are the ones most likely to need the service. Makes sense to me to wrap the two together like is done with F&G licenses.

 

[peakbagger]

I did a search today of all the usual sources and there does not appear to be any additional publicity on a parking fee at the Franconia Ridge loop lots. The only update is this has been added to the Franconia Notch State Park Shuttle info Hiker Shuttle Service (pending for the 2022 season) in RED Given its officially spring and about 2 months to May when the loop gets popular, its getting late to implement a new program. Then again the concept may be to just install the pay stations, park an employee and trooper at the lot and let social media inevitably publicize it.

 

[Mike P.]

Feeling good about planning to re-visit the Notch and bringing my bike. My plan is to park at Cannon and ride down to basin and take the Greenleaf trail back.

How many other trailheads could that happen at? Most are USFS so you pay already. What about C-Notch State Park? The AMC is collecting if parking at the Highland Center. The other lots? The one by the Crawford Connector is on USFS, correct? What about others further below the notch? Davis Path, Kendron? Green Hills, Diana's Bath?

 

[NHClimber]

Seems like inflation is everywhere.

 

[peakbagger]

Alternatively, is it time for a turnstyle?. Everyone walking OBP and Fallings Waters goes past the paved stretch from the North Parking lot. Staff it with an employee from 7 AM to 3 PM. Figure $50 an hour for a fully loaded summer employee. Put a big deposit only safe in the floor. Collect a fee from everyone who heads in. People taking the paid shuttle show their ticket stub as the fee is built into their ticket. People parking at the lots have a separate per car fee used to subsidize the shuttle. AMC can either load it into their hut fee and supply them a voucher or warn the guests that they need to bring more cash.
There is no power at the parking lot but a rack of solar panels takes care of that. Heck maybe part of the fee will go to maintain the privies

 

[maineguy]

Nice that the AMC have no problem charging for parking at their lot at Highland but don’t pay a dime to drop their clients from their shuttle at the Old Bridal Path. The problem in this area is not only lack of space for parking but is over use of the trails and their subsequent degradation in that area and across The Whites. The AMC albeit does trail work but does not directly pay monetarily back into the system potentially just like anyone else using that area. What is needed is not a parking fee but a user fee with the funds going directly back into the trail system rather than giving a non profit cart blanche to continue over using the system while they have a lease to do so on public lands. What’s another five or ten bucks added on to a night’s stay when your already paying well over $100 already. If you do the Math it amounts to a sizable number. Conservatively GreenLeaf alone sleeps 20 hikers. Multiplied by $10 that is $2000. Extrapolate that to peak season at 7 nights per weak. Now your talking $14000. Let’s say peak Season runs about 8-10 weeks. That sums up to be a potential of $140000. Also that just includes peak season at only one trailhead. Just to put it in perspective the CEO of the AMC collects a salary close to twice that amount if not more annually.

I think that is a great idea. Tack on a user fee for those staying at the huts to be used for trail maintenance. Should be done for all the huts. I'm not usually a fan of fees of this sort but the Huts do attract great numbers of hikers and contribute to many problems.

 

[Peaks]

There is an entrance fee at other NH state parks. Why not Franconia as well?

 

[NHClimber]

Conservatively GreenLeaf alone sleeps 20 hikers. Multiplied by $10 that is $2000.

Did you mean $10 x 20 or $100 x 20? Btw, I don't disagree with any of this.

 

[skiguy]

Did you mean $10 x 20 or $100 x 20? Btw, I don't disagree with any of this.

Your right too many zeros

 

[peakbagger]

Much as folks would like to get out the torches and pitchforks and storm the front doors of AMC headquarters to collect a user toll, trail usage is increasing across the board by folks using social media and on line resources contributing nothing to trail maintenance. AMC's membership is declining and hut usage has been pretty well maxed out for decades. Therefore AMCs users are an increasingly lower percentage of an increasing user base. In theory AMC hut guests are at least exposed to LNT guidelines compared to the general hiking public which of late seems to be drawn to the FRT loop by 10 ten best lists. If user funding for the trails is needed,IMO it needs to extract bucks from all users on a much broader scale than just hitting up AMC hut users.

 

[Mike P.]

While a small fee at huts wouldn't be bad, Peakbagger is right. In addition, many of the trails are maintained by AMC and they do assist in SAR plus provide a baseline of LNT education.. (Unless they closed one of the rooms, Flea sleeps closer to 48)

The vast majority of new hikers are finding out about the Franconia Loop from Ten Best list, from social media like Instagram, FB and meet-up groups. Maybe trail crews can get free FB ad space or USFS can have a Go Fund me page and anyone who looks FRT up or posts it to their Instagram, fee, you can take a .05 from the Zuck's pockets. Our fellow hiker who was rescued twice from AZ's highest peak earlier this month has unlikely taken a NOLS's course or has taken the AMC or ADK Skills course. He read about Kate, he took a guided trip to Kilimanjaro and took pictures for his social media presence. ((I refer to social media about half the time as antisocial media as it encourages anonymous insulting of strangers while you are in a private location. I'm not hiking when I'm on VFTT, Am I really practicing good social habits online instead of actually interacting with real people)

What I'll be waiting for next is for a higher out of state fee structure like at BSP. CT and MA residents don't vote in NH elections.

OTOH what are these fees for? Is the state going to maintain the trail sections that are in the State Parks? For Crawford, that is all of the Webster Branch of the Webster-Jackson Trail and parts of others. For Franconia Notch, all the KRT southbound to Cannon's summit, the area up to Lonesome Lake Hut but very little of fishin jimmy which skirts the boundary. Very little of Falling Waters is within the State Park, however, most of the OBP is in the park. the Hut appears to be outside and the Greenleaf trail up high is out of the State Park while lower sections are mostly but not completely in the State Park. How much bureaucracy will still be determining cost allocation and needs between the USFS and the State of NH. My guess would be this was an issue decades ago which is how AMC became involved in trail maintenance. Most of us don't stop at the borders between State, USFS and Wilderness boundaries.

Has draft kings started a prop bet yet on where fees will be collected. -900 for the General fund and 100-1 for a dedicated fund only for trail maintenance. Once in the General Fund, they'll disappear.

 

[skiguy]

Much as folks would like to get out the torches and pitchforks and storm the front doors of AMC headquarters to collect a user toll, trail usage is increasing across the board by folks using social media and on line resources contributing nothing to trail maintenance. AMC's membership is declining and hut usage has been pretty well maxed out for decades. Therefore AMCs users are an increasingly lower percentage of an increasing user base. In theory AMC hut guests are at least exposed to LNT guidelines compared to the general hiking public which of late seems to be drawn to the FRT loop by 10 ten best lists. If user funding for the trails is needed,IMO it needs to extract bucks from all users on a much broader scale than just hitting up AMC hut users.

I agree. All users. Then maybe we could add on the extra zeros. The proposed fee cited in the OP would not include The AMC as they would not be parking their shuttle but still using the trail therefore creating a loophole on their part. My suggestion would close that. I’ll be back with my pitchfork soon enough.

 

[skiguy]

While a small fee at huts wouldn't be bad, Peakbagger is right. In addition, many of the trails are maintained by AMC and they do assist in SAR plus provide a baseline of LNT education.. (Unless they closed one of the rooms, Flea sleeps closer to 48)

The vast majority of new hikers are finding out about the Franconia Loop from Ten Best list, from social media like Instagram, FB and meet-up groups. Maybe trail crews can get free FB ad space or USFS can have a Go Fund me page and anyone who looks FRT up or posts it to their Instagram, fee, you can take a .05 from the Zuck's pockets. Our fellow hiker who was rescued twice from AZ's highest peak earlier this month has unlikely taken a NOLS's course or has taken the AMC or ADK Skills course. He read about Kate, he took a guided trip to Kilimanjaro and took pictures for his social media presence. ((I refer to social media about half the time as antisocial media as it encourages anonymous insulting of strangers while you are in a private location. I'm not hiking when I'm on VFTT, Am I really practicing good social habits online instead of actually interacting with real people)

What I'll be waiting for next is for a higher out of state fee structure like at BSP. CT and MA residents don't vote in NH elections.

OTOH what are these fees for? Is the state going to maintain the trail sections that are in the State Parks? For Crawford, that is all of the Webster Branch of the Webster-Jackson Trail and parts of others. For Franconia Notch, all the KRT southbound to Cannon's summit, the area up to Lonesome Lake Hut but very little of fishin jimmy which skirts the boundary. Very little of Falling Waters is within the State Park, however, most of the OBP is in the park. the Hut appears to be outside and the Greenleaf trail up high is out of the State Park while lower sections are mostly but not completely in the State Park. How much bureaucracy will still be determining cost allocation and needs between the USFS and the State of NH. My guess would be this was an issue decades ago which is how AMC became involved in trail maintenance. Most of us don't stop at the borders between State, USFS and Wilderness boundaries.

Has draft kings started a prop bet yet on where fees will be collected. -900 for the General fund and 100-1 for a dedicated fund only for trail maintenance. Once in the General Fund, they'll disappear.

Connecticut most definitely collects it’s fees when it comes to State Parks.

 

[NHClimber]

(I refer to social media about half the time as antisocial media as it encourages anonymous insulting of strangers while you are in a private location. I'm not hiking when I'm on VFTT, Am I really practicing good social habits online instead of actually interacting with real people)

Apologies for thread drift, but I think's it's a people problem (i.e., not learning to engage in civil discourse whether in person or online, with a tendency to rely on the fact that there are fewer consequences when engaging online). I don't think it's social media per se. And I think social media can encompass anything online, including this forum. I always try to envision that the folks online are standing in front of me, and I'd want to be able to run into someone from online and not feel like they'd think I'm a jerk (even if we disagreed about something). People need to be taught better, and that starts in the home.

 

[Mike P.]

Connecticut most definitely collects it’s fees when it comes to State Parks.

It depends on the park. In CT, Parks on Long Island Sound are held as either the Jewels or the parks with the most attendance and those most definitely have fees. Most of the one with hiking trails don't and for one on the sound that has both beach and trails, there is roadside parking that many people use. The beach parks have a definite "season". It does raise a question regarding Franconia Notch though. Will there be a season with a fee and an off-season? For us, there is no real offseason but I can't see them putting someone out in the winter all bundled up to collect.