Lafayette Place and Old Bridle Path Parking Fees proposed

[DayTrip]

Connecticut most definitely collects it’s fees when it comes to State Parks.

For out of state residents. Most stuff in CT is free for residents.

 

[peakbagger]

State of NH crews presumably do the trail construction and maintenance at Monadnock. Monadnock also has the equivalent of a "turnstile" at the primary trailheads for Monadnock so the skills are within the department to figure and administer a fee structure and do trail work. I would also speculate that seasonal trail crew from non profits may regard a state job with, in theory, better benefits, as step up in their career progression (Andrew can comment ) I believe NH crews have on occasion done work on Falling Waters as evidenced by the rock steps that have been cut into rocks in a few places (then again it could have been a motivated volunteer group or response to the tourist death that occurred there). There also was a lot of work done on Cannon in recent years to cut down on the many old bootleg trails that intertwined the summit and improve the primary trail that circles the east side of the summit. My pure speculation is that State Parks just does not want the trouble without funding in place.

State Parks was quite direct when the shuttle program was created that they really did not want to run it but had to try to do something to deal with the overflow parking issues at the two trailhead lots while the master planning group consisting of AMC, State Parks and the USFS ruminated on a grand plan for controlling overuse of a larger portfolio of trails . FSP has also reported that the program ran at a loss and that FSP was not willing to subsidize this effort. The proposal from last fall was directed at covering the deficit for the shuttle. Adding in a trail maintenance funding aspect has to date not been brought up by the state and I expect the state is not interested in starting a FSP trail crew. I suppose they could advertise for proposals from private groups, but private trail maintenance groups are pretty rare in the area. I think one is operating in the Conway area taking advantage of the various funding opportunities for bike paths and I think Carl Demrow was at one time offering these services in VT although I think he really was interested in the layout and planning aspects. RMCs trail crew participated in the Crawford Path work which pulled them away from work in RMC territory in hopes that the club would get funding for work on the AT section they inherited so there was a quid pro quo but do not believe they are willing to rent out their crew for the couple of seasons that OBP and FW would soak up. AMC ends up being the logical entity that can field a trail crew with a substantial interest in the trail work on these trails. Relative to a profit making firm, AMC can effectively juggle the books to always come out low cost. I do not see the state acting as a conduit to collect funds to be handed to AMC given the conservative bent that NH state politics has shifted to of late.

 

[maineguy]

I do not see the state acting as a conduit to collect funds to be handed to AMC given the conservative bent that NH state politics has shifted to of late.

Those dastardly conservatives

 

[Andrew]

State of NH crews presumably do the trail construction and maintenance at Monadnock. Monadnock also has the equivalent of a "turnstile" at the primary trailheads for Monadnock so the skills are within the department to figure and administer a fee structure and do trail work. I would also speculate that seasonal trail crew from non profits may regard a state job with, in theory, better benefits, as step up in their career progression (Andrew can comment )... "

I can only speak from a historic perspective now, as I intended to keep working part time for NH Parks, but got laid off due to the pandemic, and then realized that I don't want to work for the State of NH anymore. So I'm getting far away from what's going on now.

Unfortunately there never was a paid professional crew for hiking trails in NH State Parks during my time. The NH Trails Bureau has full time permanent field staff, but they only maintain the motorized trails. From what I was able to see at FNSP/Cannon, they actually have a crew (mainly part time) out of The Flume that focuses on upkeep of the Flume trails and some of the roadside attraction type trails like The Basin area. I think at times there was a full time benefitted position that was a trails supervisor for Cannon/FNSP that oversaw the trails at the ski area in the winter and summer, and hiking trails throughout FNSP in fair seasons. I saw this position advertised a couple of times, and I think the duties varied depending on the person. I believe the current Flume manager was in the trails position previously and may have also done ski patrol at Cannon in the winter to cobble together year round full time status. Interesting to note that I often heard from the NH State Parks Assistant Central Region Supervisor, that he had to go up to Lonesome Lake or elsewhere in FNSP to deal with a trail issue, so I think there may be some in-house arrangement where FNSP handles trails closer to Rte. 93, and Central Region is responsible away from the main drag (I never got the full info).

At Monadnock in around 1992 a management plan was written for the park that identified the need for a paid full time (seasonal- benefitted) professional trail supervisor with a small crew, but this was only funded for one year. When I started at the park in '93, there were 3 full time benefitted positions at Monadnock; the permanent year round manager, a full time seasonal toll collector that was lead for the fee collection and front door operations, and a full time seasonal maintenance mechanic lead that was also considered the assistant park manager. The 2 seasonal full timers often worked part time in the winter. Up into today the positions at Monadnock have changed to 2 full time year round manager and assistant park manager positions, with all other employees seasonal part time. This is a good place to note that the person who succeeded me as manager at Monadnock in '08, eventually went on to be hired to a newly created position out of the Concord HQ as the NH State Parks Volunteer Coordinator, and eventually to Mt. Wash. Also good to note that at the time this was a position and pay upgrade to go from the highly involved 24/7 monadnock manager job to the pencil pushing position out of Concord! Monadnock's position was eventually upgraded to much better pay as well as the position I recently retired from, go figure- I got screwed and NH got huge amounts of free labor from me, oh well, at least I'm happy now.

So keeping in mind that much of Monadnock is owned by the Society for the Protection of NH Forests (SPNHF), and they have a commitment to land stewardship, there were and still exist some interesting methods and funding for trails there, but a partial historical walk helps frame perspective. When I started there the paid employees almost never performed trail maintenance, not even routine upkeep. There was not enough of us to man the tollbooth, clean the toilets and maintain bldgs., mow and maintain grounds and campsites, and perform as S&R crew members, and there was never a time when we were not told to cut those employees at any time possible. So a little routine maintenance such as waterbar cleaning would only happen on weekends if the paid S&R Mountain Patrollers had time on the way to the summit. There was originally a loose cadre of volunteers that helped maintain some of their favorites, and this effort was formalized more recently. We also benefitted from the good will of some groups who came forward to offer their own help on an annual basis; such as Bill Darcy from the AMC NH Chapter, the Trailwrights, Craig from the Cardigan Highlanders, the old time EMS employees out of the Peterborough store, and groups such as the Concord Ropes program. State money would usually be secured annually to bring in a Student Conservation Association crew for close to 2 weeks to do a construction project, but the success of these projects would highly vary due to whatever professional leadership they might have on a given season. SPNHF worked to create an annual trails week at Monadnock and they would tackle a heavy project with excellent leadership from many of their paid professional (experienced) staff happy to get out of the office, and bringing along many volunteers. All the groups aforementioned became involved in trails week and often took leadership on different projects all over the mountain.

With the more recent Monadnock Master Plan, SPNHF exercised pressure to divert more state funding for trail stewardship. They own the land at the Old Toll Rd. trailhead, and it was at the time the second most heavily used entrance that was staffed by state park employees collecting fees and controlling use since about '92. So per agreement between the state and SPNHF, I and my successors would each fiscal year submit a total of all expenses incurred by the state to staff and maintain this trailhead, and send all profit beyond to SPNHF. The results were almost immediate and SPNHF started to and I think continue to fund an additional SCA type crew on an annual basis to Monadnock along with trails week, that might be in addition to an SCA project that the park manager might request to be funded by state means (and this might actually be through grant funding).

After I left Monadnock, one of the seasonal part time employees took it upon herself to coordinate the loose cadre of volunteers to accomplish what Craig appropriately calls Level 1 maintainers into a powerful force. She did most of this work on her own time for the past 10 years or so, but I just spoke with her and the excellent manager there had just told her they were going to start paying her for this work. It was always beyond me that I could never get the state to understand the need and value of and for trail maintenance at Monadnock. Many other parks have significant infrastructure that has to be maintained in order to provide whatever recreational 'product' a park might offer, and have less hesitation to put money towards this infrastructure. Unfortunately it seems the hiking trails are a bit taken for granted as they assume they will always be there. I was at Monadnock pulling in significant revenue from peoples use of the trails, that is what they are there for, but it was always a hard sell to bring that money back to the trails that were the main feature of the park. Made no sense to me.

So I hope you don't mind this short journey through my experiences concerning this issue, but wonder if I managed to answer the question towards career progression in all that. The current park manager at Monadnock who I hold in the highest regard, I met in my first year working at Monadnock as he was fresh out of high school and a member of the first ever NH State Parks Americorp crew that was housed and based out of Monadnock State Park. He was hired as a seasonal part time park employee the next season, and eventually when I became park manager- I fought hard and got him hired as the first year-round assistant park manager, although the best I could do was low paying, and the position was modified the next year. He went on to work for the SCA for more permanent and better pay and became a very well respected and skilled trail construction supervisor for well over a decade. I heard there were structural changes in the SCA that put his position at risk, so thankfully the state got a better person than they deserved.

 

[peakbagger]

Thanks for the insight. It appears that Monadnock has SPNHF in the background due to land ownership while FSP seems to lack that external driver and oversight as the property is in the state's hands. As the Ossipee mess from several years ago, ongoing Cannon mountain access issues (funny how state owned land has more access restrictions than most private owned land) and the ongoing Nash Stream issues previously with leaseholders right's being extended and the current ATV trail expansion issues, once the state gets perceived control, external oversight seems to go by the wayside. I am not the only one with these concerns but many of the folks I have run into over the years work inside the system and do not dare express opinions in public as it can affect their future employment. Upset the right people and folks end up on the outside looking in.

Luckily, good dedicated staff seem to insist on doing good work and on rare occasions get rewarded despite the bureaucracy at higher levels, so there is some hope.

It will be interesting to see what oversite the funding for trail improvements to the Franconia ridge loop.

 

[rocket21]

I disagree with the parking fees, and I suspect that many days the cost to collect the fees may exceed the actual revenue.

I think the Lafayette Place parking lot should be expanded and illegal parking should be ticketed/towed as necessary.

I also think the state should finally start using the Sunapee lease money to make improvements across the parks system, rather than putting all of it (and more) into Cannon Mountain ski area. Since 2000, $11,506,914 in Sunapee lease proceeds have been used to subsidize Cannon.

 

[CaptCaper]

I disagree with the parking fees, and I suspect that many days the cost to collect the fees may exceed the actual revenue.

I think the Lafayette Place parking lot should be expanded and illegal parking should be ticketed/towed as necessary.

I also think the state should finally start using the Sunapee lease money to make improvements across the parks system, rather than putting all of it (and more) into Cannon Mountain ski area. Since 2000, $11,506,914 in Sunapee lease proceeds have been used to subsidize Cannon.

Collecting fees large fees work for many other state parks across the country. Custer State Park, etc. National Parks have large fees during peak times as well and alot have gone to reservations only to get in. Being FNSP is very popular these can be easily collected and profitable during peak times. And it proably will be the only way in time to deal with it.

 

[rocket21]

Collecting fees large fees work for many other state parks across the country. Custer State Park, etc. National Parks have large fees during peak times as well and alot have gone to reservations only to get in. Being FNSP is very popular these can be easily collected and profitable during peak times. And it proably will be the only way in time to deal with it.

With the relatively small size of Lafayette Place, and the longer parking duration (whether it be hiking a 9 mile/4,300' loop or staying overnight at a campground/hut), I don't think the revenue stream will be as robust as something like Monadnock, or have as frequent a turnover as something like Kearsarge.

 

[CaptCaper]

With the relatively small size of Lafayette Place, and the longer parking duration (whether it be hiking a 9 mile/4,300' loop or staying overnight at a campground/hut), I don't think the revenue stream will be as robust as something like Monadnock, or have as frequent a turnover as something like Kearsarge.

I would do fees to all the parking areas along the notch that jam up every time.. from the flume to Artists bluff area. That would give profit overall. Collect at prime times by a worker in those areas..my wife did that at a very small boat ramp in a town. Teachers off or students off for the summer would jump on that. Sounds crazy? not really. Happens every where across this country all the time.

 

[peakbagger]

It would not be hard to figure the usage out, my guess is some agency has already done a usage count or if they have not, there are commercially available infrared sensors that could be used that can output usage and interval data so the peak times can be established. A part of the issue may be that with multiple parties involved, without a lead group responsible, nothing gets done. The turnstile approach would require full time staff while the parking approach used by the feds would not but still needs some attention by paid staff. Enforcement is also more difficult with a fee parking approach. My suspicion is that many tickets would be crumpled up as litter in the lot or along the parkway. My guess is the turnstile approach could be staffed from 7 to 3 (8 hour shift) and catch 90% of the usage of the loop and the waterfalls. There is already supervision in place to support this effort at the Flume and the Tram and staff could be rotated between the areas. This would be seasonal work so the payroll burden is not as significant as a full time permanent position. There is space at the former borrow pit across from the privies and its a logical spot for turnstile. My guess is staffing the shuttle is a far larger cost as it needs to be staffed for a longer duration during the day plus have a primary and a backup vehicle to support it. Ideally it would be a "green" vehicle like those that are used in some national parks. There is plenty of room for canopy type siolar arrays in the Tram lot to support charging. The shuttle folks could enforce the parking fee during the slower hours in late mornings and afternoon.

My suspicion is permitting and building a parking lot expansion would be a multiyear effort. It took decades to permit the parkway and I suspect that more parking will mean more traffic on the trails and inevitably the issue with trail maintenance will properly be brought up.

 

[JustJoe]

I would do fees to all the parking areas along the notch that jam up every time.. from the flume to Artists bluff area. That would give profit overall. Collect at prime times by a worker in those areas..my wife did that at a very small boat ramp in a town. Teachers off or students off for the summer would jump on that. Sounds crazy? not really. Happens every where across this country all the time.

I agree with implementing fees at Lafayette Place and Old Bridle Path Parking. But, the Flume already charges $18 for over 13 during it's season (roughly May to October). Charging for parking on top of that would be a bit excessive. The percentage of that lot being used by anyone not visiting the Flume is pretty small IMO. And Artists Bluff/Bald Mtn. uses Cannons parking lot. However, The Basin, both sides of the road, probably has in excess of 100 spaces with pretty high turnover. It's there they should try the fee tube or electronic pay station. Should be able to bring in a decent amount of revenue during the summer and fall months. On a separate note. I wish they'd make that entire area (The Basin) no swimming. Won't get into what I'm seeing in there now.

 

[DayTrip]

Any of the NY people here have any relevant feedback on this relative to that parking permit system implemented last year for the lot at the Ausable Club? Be curious what kind of money that has generated, issues, what people have been doing to circumvent, etc, etc. That is a somewhat comparable lot in terms of size (its smaller I think) and popularity.

 

[maineguy]

Any of the NY people here have any relevant feedback on this relative to that parking permit system implemented last year for the lot at the Ausable Club? Be curious what kind of money that has generated, issues, what people have been doing to circumvent, etc, etc. That is a somewhat comparable lot in terms of size (its smaller I think) and popularity.

I believe that the parking areas at the Ausable Club are outside the Blue Line and thus private land. Correct me if I am wrong about this. Been quite a while. Whereas the NH parking areas are within a state park and thus public land. Also, there are substantial fees to park at Adirondack Loj as well as the Garden, which I think still runs a shuttle.

 

[TCD]

AC Parking is on private land, but it within the blue line. The blue line defines the boundary of the entire Adirondack Park. But the park is a mix of public and private land (currently about 50% public and another 10-15% private protected by easements).

Adirondack Loj is also on private land of the Adirondack Mountain Club.

Some discussion here about the first year of the permit program:

https://www.adkhighpeaks.com/forums...s-and-answers/516112-ausable-parking-for-2022

 

[DayTrip]

AC Parking is on private land, but it within the blue line. The blue line defines the boundary of the entire Adirondack Park. But the park is a mix of public and private land (currently about 50% public and another 10-15% private protected by easements).

Adirondack Loj is also on private land of the Adirondack Mountain Club.

Some discussion here about the first year of the permit program:

https://www.adkhighpeaks.com/forums...s-and-answers/516112-ausable-parking-for-2022

Thanks. I was trying to find that thread earlier and couldn't locate it. Was pretty lively discussion when I was last reading it but I haven't followed up since the new reservation program was just about to roll out.

 

[rocket21]

My suspicion is permitting and building a parking lot expansion would be a multiyear effort. It took decades to permit the parkway and I suspect that more parking will mean more traffic on the trails and inevitably the issue with trail maintenance will properly be brought up.

You'd be surprised how easily and quietly things can get done. Did you hear about any permitting or issues with the new building Cannon constructed above 4,000 feet a few years ago?

 

[Andrew]

.... On a separate note. I wish they'd make that entire area (The Basin) no swimming. Won't get into what I'm seeing in there now.......

Not totally separate as this discussion really got me thinking about the varied use at the Basin, and the ability to access. My family loves to go there for a quick trip to cool off and not by 'swimming', just being in that cool refreshing environment and maybe a dip of the feet for the few seconds you can stand. It's getting rough with towels and beach like setups limiting access for extended periods.

 

[Andrew]

I disagree with the parking fees, and I suspect that many days the cost to collect the fees may exceed the actual revenue.

I think the Lafayette Place parking lot should be expanded and illegal parking should be ticketed/towed as necessary.

I also think the state should finally start using the Sunapee lease money to make improvements across the parks system, rather than putting all of it (and more) into Cannon Mountain ski area. Since 2000, $11,506,914 in Sunapee lease proceeds have been used to subsidize Cannon.

I agree when I look at the example at Monadnock where I really think we needed a third parking lot constructed at HQ, but the Master Plan agreed to modest expansion of existing lots with some increased distribution to other trailheads. What happened was we continued to accommodate most of the high use at HQ with marginal parking facilities that took an inordinate amount of personnel to manage. The 2003 Master Plan didn't fully deal with the existing use and the problems and impacts only compounded with the increasing use. This would be a good place to note something elsewhere in the thread I felt good to mention; the current NH parks director was the first who had the opportunity with an improved budget and I think true interest in stewardship, to start to scale back some of the high use and seriously consider carrying capacities after I left Monadnock and he became Director, and things (at least managing use as far as I am aware) have improved.

But it's tight and sensitive in the notch and might be a hard sell, especially with the existence of the Cannon lot. There are probably places where they can improve the existing parking lots and areas at Lafayette Place/Bridle Path to see modest increases and easier management. Personally I wouldn't be too keen on using the shuttle to access any trailheads, but my use pattern may be different with living close by.

 

[maineguy]

For those who have access to back issues of Appalachia, there is a great article in the June 1969 issue concerning the routing of I93 thru the notch. At that time it was to be a standard 4 lane interstate highway. There was even a plan for a tunnel near Profile Lake. What is interesting, however, is that there is no mention of trailhead parking access. The plan was to have a separate entrance to the Park and basically no exits on the interstate between The Flume and Echo Lake. I have only a vague recollection of parking at the Whitehouse trail and then staying at Liberty Spring shelter. I didn't visit the trailhead for OBP and don't know what it was like then. (I pretty much left the East Coast in 69 and didn't return until 81). In one of the proposed plans for the notch (in 1969) was an 1800 car parking lot at Cannon.

Attached is a scan from the article: