Lidar Article with comments about the AMC 4K list

[Tom_Murphy]

Interesting little history of the Four Thousand Footer Club.
http://www.amc4000footer.org/history.html

1951 is a ways back now, but it's fun to think about a time when Cabot, Waumbek, Tom, Zealand, Owl’s Head, West Bond and the Hancocks lacked trails on them.

Brian

It is also fun to think of summiting North and South Hancock after J. E. Henry trains left and before the Kancamagus.

 

[peakbagger]

There are references that early AMC members who deplored JE Henry's logging practices would line up for "Sunday Special" trips on Henry's logging railroads into the Pemi. I have not seen a reference that lists what routes were used for these tourist trains. My guess is they may have gone out to Stillwater. The claim was that the trails up the Hancocks was based on following old logging paths and dugways combined with the slide.

Cabot no doubt had a trail to the lookout tower and the "rangers spring" was halfway along the ridge to the summit, therefore the additional trail to the summit was not a major stretch but given the somewhat featureless summit there probably was no reason. The first time I did Zealand in the late eighties, there was no attempt at a screed in path to the current summit. I think the sign was right on the side of the trail. My speculation is that enough folks wandered around in the woods looking for a summit that someone finally picked a spot and just ran a defined path to it to reduce impact to the woods.

 

[JoshandBaron]

There are references that early AMC members who deplored JE Henry's logging practices would line up for "Sunday Special" trips on Henry's logging railroads into the Pemi. I have not seen a reference that lists what routes were used for these tourist trains. My guess is they may have gone out to Stillwater.

The Belcher book includes a 1904 reference to the "Blueberry Express" trains going to Camp 10 on Saturday afternoons and a photo of an excursion train loaded with passengers at Camp 13

 

[skiguy]

The Belcher book includes a 1904 reference to the "Blueberry Express" trains going to Camp 10 on Saturday afternoons and a photo of an excursion train loaded with passengers at Camp 13

I guess the rules have changed. You could ride a train but gosh forbid if you ride a bike now. LOL Darn those Appies for coming up with a game they want everyone to play but only by their rules.

 

[TEO]

It's not clear to me that the rules *have* changed. The lists were originally made based on the best available maps. It's been quite a while since I paid any attention, but the rules as I recall them went something like this:

*above 4000' based on USGS maps.
* at least 200' prominence based on USGS maps.
** some rules for "questionable cols" where counting topo lines leaves the prominence uncertain (this has changed a bit, there is a "clean prominence" criterion but older peaks can be grandfathered in)
*** something about having 1 questionable col being ok, but 2 meant leave it off the list? I think that's why Guyot was off originally.
** a rule about standards of proof for changing the list. Like, if Guyot only has one questionable col on a new map, that's not enough to add it now. It has to clearly belong, i.e. have no questionable cols.)

I could be misremembering most of the above, but the point is that the rules are not quite as simple as you might think.

The AMC 4K committee has consistently declined to accept good GPS evidence, until the evidence was reflected in new maps. They've always been less concerned with objective geographic truth than I would like.

The rules specify *USGS* maps, so this new LIDAR map doesn't change anything as far as the 4K committee need be concerned.

Personally, I think the new LIDAR maps should be accepted by the 4K committee and the list revised accordingly. But that would actually require a rule change.

I have a vague worry that I'm forgetting some recent incident where the committee clearly ignored its own rules in favor of leaving some peak on or off the list for the sake of tradition. Hancock maybe? And of course there's the Nose on Mansfield, left off the [NE] list due to a map error (missing topo line).

I'm in agreement with your disappointment nartreb.

In an old interview with Gene Daniel, maybe in the late naughts or early '10s, I recall that he took a subtle dig at the Adirondack 46ers for sticking with a historical list and likewise took pride in the AMC 4k'er Committee adapting its lists as mapping accuracy was improved. That said, it's my understanding that even at the time of the article, it was known that S. Hancock didn't have a 200' col and they were keeping it on the list because of tradition. The 4k'er Committee will not recognize the Nose because the GMC doesn't want it recognized, and understandibly so. Much alpine vegatation has returned since the closing of the Triangle and Back Nose trails. Reopening one of those trails would require the hiring of another summit steward and divert financial resources in order to protect the alpine area, and even still, it would likely suffer. As Nartreb points out, they can fall back on the errant USGS topo to support their decision, despite the Nose's U.SS Coast & Geodetic Survey benchmark.

It makes sense that the Adk. 46ers stick with the historical list, but given the AMC 4k'er Committee's history of updating their lists, I'm disappointed that they are ignoring the LIDAR data.

 

[peakbagger]

I and others had a direct discussion with Gene one Labor Day weekend long ago while hiking when AMC led a set of hikes to the then "4 pack" on Labor Day weekend. The new 7.5 provisionals had just been published (previously the best map for these were 15 minutes quads from 1921). He was of the opinion that the 100 highest list would be revised as the USGS maps were regarded as "official documents" with a fairly strict level of accuracy. We were doing the loop of White Cap and Boundary Peak via Wiggle Brook Road and he mentioned that since we were walking by Kennebago Divide, that he would declare a lunch break for the group and those inclined could go bag Kennebago Divide. We had ascended White Cap via the old logging road that ran between White Cap and Kennebago Divide so it was not a major effort. He did mention Cupsuptic Snow was also being added to the list but suggested those who wanted to visit it would need to do it on their own on another day. I think one of the Bigelow Horns was replaced on the list as well as Middle Abraham. He was not that upset about the Horn as he regarded it as a possible imposter due to inadequate col but did lament losing Middle Abraham. At the time the committee did a two year transition where completions of either list counted. He also stated that in his opinion the only way the list would change again is if the USGS issued updated maps.

I expect the issue with accepting Lidar generated topo and elevation is that I have not seen what sort of accuracy is guaranteed. No doubt its precise with a high resolution but is it accurate? If you look at the "new at the time" 7.5 minute provisional quads, the USGS established temporary benchmarks in multiple locations on maps to confirm a tie into an existing datum, I am unsure if the point clouds generated by Lidar have the same vetting. Yes Larry Garland and group of professionals did vet the Tecumseh summit elevation and installed a brass disk but is they going to be done with the same care for all the summits and potential summits?.

 

[Puma concolor]

More on the Pennsylvania State Highpoint LIDAR data.

https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=61570

The imagery from the northern cluster exactly agrees with what I observed/experienced on the ground on July 16th.

 

[maineguy]

Yeah, it's a "cluster" alright

 

[Puma concolor]

Hahaha.