National Geographic: Remains of Andrew 'Sandy' Irvine believed to have been found on Everest

[Ear Drum]

A National Geographic team led by climber and cinematographer Jimmy Chin found part of Sandy Irvine's remains, a century after he and George Mallory vanished on Everest. I hope they find the rest of him, along with the camera he carried, which may or may not have a summit photo. If they made it to the top, it was decades before Edmund Hillary and Tenzin Norgay.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/sandy-irvine-body-found-everest

excerpt:

In September, on the broad expanse of the Central Rongbuk Glacier, below the north face of Mount Everest, a National Geographic documentary team that included the photographer and director Jimmy Chin, along with filmmakers and climbers Erich Roepke and Mark Fisher, examined the boot more closely. Inside, they discovered a foot, remains that they instantly recognized as belonging to Andrew Comyn Irvine, or Sandy, as he was known, who vanished 100 years ago with the famed climber George Mallory.

“I lifted up the sock,” Chin says, describing the moment, “and there’s a red label that has A.C. IRVINE stitched into it.” Chin says he and his companions recognized the significance of the moment in unison. “We were all literally running in circles dropping F-bombs.”

Irvine and Mallory were last seen on June 8, 1924, while attempting to become the first people to reach the top of the world’s highest peak. The question of whether they had summited has endured as the greatest climbing mystery of all time. If Irvine and Mallory succeeded, their feat would have come some 29 years before Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary finally reached the top of Everest.

 

[Grey J]

It's pretty cool (and maybe a little grim) that they found some of his remains 100 years later. But even if they found his camera and there were summit photos, would he receive credit as the first to "climb Everest"? I thought it was generally agreed that to claim a peak, you need to make it up AND down under your own power. Getting to the summit and dying on the way down shouldn't count.

 

[sierra]

It's pretty cool (and maybe a little grim) that they found some of his remains 100 years later. But even if they found his camera and there were summit photos, would he receive credit as the first to "climb Everest"? I thought it was generally agreed that to claim a peak, you need to make it up AND down under your own power. Getting to the summit and dying on the way down shouldn't count.

Given the time frame of their climb, it would be considered one of, if not the greatest achievement in mountaineering history if they made the summit. Regardless of them not making it down, although your point is certainly well taken. I have read and studied many of the early expeditions to Everest, pre Hillary, it was like trying to get to the moon summiting 8000 meter peaks. I mean it's still hard and the gear we have is space age compared to what Mallory and Irving used.

 

[skiguy]

This is very interesting and hopefully brings to Irvine's Family some closure. No disrespect but I'm with Grey J on this one and his line of thinking. A very debatable subject IMO as far as "Greatest Achievement in Mountaineering History". My vote would go to Messner and his solo climb of Everest sans O2 and Sherpas. Especially since he is still here to talk about it.

 

[sierra]

This is very interesting and hopefully brings to Irvine's Family some closure. No disrespect but I'm with Grey J on this one and his line of thinking. A very debatable subject IMO as far as "Greatest Achievement in Mountaineering History". My vote would go to Messner and his solo climb of Everest sans O2 and Sherpas. Especially since he is still here to talk about it.

Its certainly debatable and it's probably being discussed in bars and coffee houses worldwide right now. As far as Messner goes, you don't have to sell me. His book the 7th grade was folklore to me as a young climber. I looked at him as the best climber of the time, he's probably one of the best all time climbers for high altitude, if not the best.

 

[DayTrip]

Its certainly debatable and it's probably being discussed in bars and coffee houses worldwide right now. As far as Messner goes, you don't have to sell me. His book the 7th grade was folklore to me as a young climber. I looked at him as the best climber of the time, he's probably one of the best all time climbers for high altitude, if not the best.

Messner is an absolute legend. Love watching his interviews and documentaries. His perspective on everything is spot on in my opinion.

 

[NHChris]

My first response to this story was amazement. The second was skepticism.

I mean who sews complete name labels into their mountaineering socks? Was this to prevent Sandy’s socks from getting mixed up with George’s? Or were the socks monogrammed by the maker? If so why not just his initials?

I had a very protective mother but even she did not sew my name on my mountaineering socks.

The whole thing is like a made for TV movie!

 

[TEO]

My first response to this story was amazement. The second was skepticism.

I mean who sews complete name labels into their mountaineering socks? Was this to prevent Sandy’s socks from getting mixed up with George’s? Or were the socks monogrammed by the maker? If so why not just his initials?

I had a very protective mother but even she did not sew my name on my mountaineering socks.

The whole thing is like a made for TV movie!

Remember, these people didn't wash their own socks, so it would have been normal to have their clothing labeled with their names, not monogrammed. This would be especially true for Irvine who was just out of Oxford. Also, unless there is something amiss that we are unaware of, the risk to people such as Jimmy Chin of defrauding the public is hardly worth the potential gain.

@skiguy, a great case can be made for Messner. A case for Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary is that no one, to their knowledge, had ever been to the summit, and they didn't know if it was possible. Additionally, later summitters, including Messner, benefited from vastly superior clothing and equipment.

 

[Grey J]

Given the time frame of their climb, it would be considered one of, if not the greatest achievement in mountaineering history if they made the summit. Regardless of them not making it down, although your point is certainly well taken. I have read and studied many of the early expeditions to Everest, pre Hillary, it was like trying to get to the moon summiting 8000 meter peaks. I mean it's still hard and the gear we have is space age compared to what Mallory and Irving used.

Yes, their gear was pretty basic 100 years ago compared to what is now available. They wore wool and gaberdine according to one report that I read, and they wore leather boots, but they did have oxygen. In no way did I mean to diminish their valor, skill, or boldness in attempting this climb. My question is "what signifies a successful ascent?" If you set out to run a marathon and you make it to the 13.1 mark and die of a heart attack, then you only ran a half marathon. If you summit a peak, any peak, and you die on the way down or have to be carried down, are you/should you be credited with climbing the peak?

 

[OnAClearDay]

My first response to this story was amazement. The second was skepticism.

I mean who sews complete name labels into their mountaineering socks? Was this to prevent Sandy’s socks from getting mixed up with George’s? Or were the socks monogrammed by the maker? If so why not just his initials?

I had a very protective mother but even she did not sew my name on my mountaineering socks.

The whole thing is like a made for TV movie!

Seems like a common British practice. Attended British schools in my childhood and all my school clothing (even down to the underwear and socks) was required to have my full name sewn on it. When you have mandatory school uniforms everyone wears the same piece of clothing and it's the only way to avoid mix-ups. I would assume that back then on a large British mountaineering expedition that's run like a military unit and likely outfitted with the same gear name tags would have been common practice too.
Oddly, when I saw the sock with the sewn-on name tag, it brought back some childhood memories...

 

[NHChris]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

This brings to mind the recent kerfuffle over Messner not standing on the actual summit of Annapurna but 15 feet below the high point of the summit ridge.

If Irvine summitted and died on the descent he still got to the top. The rest is hairsplitting IMHO.

By the way, Guinness stripped Messner of his records!

 

[Peppersass]

My first response to this story was amazement. The second was skepticism.

I mean who sews complete name labels into their mountaineering socks? Was this to prevent Sandy’s socks from getting mixed up with George’s? Or were the socks monogrammed by the maker? If so why not just his initials?

I had a very protective mother but even she did not sew my name on my mountaineering socks.

The whole thing is like a made for TV movie!

My first response was skepticism for many of the same reasons. But now, waiting for confirmation.

 

[ImYourHuckleberry]

I've read multiple times about dead climbers of that era being found years later and identified by their names stitched into clothing, so it doesn't seem far fetched at all to me.

 

[Puma concolor]

FWIW.

From page 101 of “Detectives on Everest.”

I will admit that the method and manner of the discovery is a bit eyebrow raising, but Jimmy Chin simply has way too big of a reputation and way too much credibility to fabricate evidence. Perhaps the dead are only willing to give up their secrets to the worthy.

 

[skiguy]

Remember, these people didn't wash their own socks, so it would have been normal to have their clothing labeled with their names, not monogrammed. This would be especially true for Irvine who was just out of Oxford. Also, unless there is something amiss that we are unaware of, the risk to people such as Jimmy Chin of defrauding the public is hardly worth the potential gain.

@skiguy, a great case can be made for Messner. A case for Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary is that no one, to their knowledge, had ever been to the summit, and they didn't know if it was possible. Additionally, later summitters, including Messner, benefited from vastly superior clothing and equipment.

Very good points. Messner also went alone, without O's and an army of support. In other words, everything was on his back until he was too exhausted to carry it all. Also don't forget he fell in a crevasse along the way with no one to get himself out by himself. Yes his clothing was superior but he stayed warm even without the benefit of O's which would have made it easier to stay warm. So IMO superior clothing is marginal in the big picture. Also do not forget the moral and psychosocial support of being with others in such an extreme situation. Messner was self-driven and self-supported not to mention he kept his act together.... ALONE. Don't know about you but if I had fallen in a crevasse by myself at 20'000 plus feet, and then self-rescued I think I might have called it a day. Gone back to camp and had a cup of hot tea ready waiting for me that some Sherpa had brewed up. Not discrediting Hillary's accomplishments but this is the problem with this debate. It's not a level playing field.

 

[ImYourHuckleberry]

Very good points. Messner also went alone, without O's and an army of support. In other words, everything was on his back until he was too exhausted to carry it all. Also don't forget he fell in a crevasse along the way with no one to get himself out by himself. Yes his clothing was superior but he stayed warm even without the benefit of O's which would have made it easier to stay warm. So IMO superior clothing is marginal in the big picture. Also do not forget the moral and psychosocial support of being with others in such an extreme situation. Messner was self-driven and self-supported not to mention he kept his act together.... ALONE. Don't know about you but if I had fallen in a crevasse by myself at 20'000 plus feet, and then self-rescued I think I might have called it a day. Gone back to camp and had a cup of hot tea ready waiting for me that some Sherpa had brewed up. Not discrediting Hillary's accomplishments but this is the problem with this debate. It's not a level playing field.

He didn't have any Sherpas at camp to make tea for him. I believe only his girlfriend (Nena if I recall correctly) came to camp with him. But she would probably have made him a cup of tea, if he asked her nicely.

 

[skiguy]

My first response was skepticism for many of the same reasons. But now, waiting for confirmation.

I need no confirmation. Large expeditions the labeling of one's gear is quite normal. Bottom line is you are not handling, using and transporting your own gear all the time by yourself. With an expedition the size of this including around 150 porters having one's socks labeled made it a whole lot easier to keep organized. If anyone here has not lost at least one sock only to find it again in some obscure place just imagine being on the side of Everest and having it happen.

 

[skiguy]

He didn't have any Sherpas at camp to make tea for him. I believe only his girlfriend (Nena if I recall correctly) came to camp with him. But she would probably have made him a cup of tea, if he asked her nicely.

Nena was at camp at The North Col but not the camp he made his Summit Push from.

 

[TEO]

They wore wool and gaberdine according to one report that I read, and they wore leather boots, but they did have oxygen.

Gabardine, the worsted wool twill fabric, has two "a"s. "Gaberdine" is one version of a name for a 15th and 16th century garment. What I didn't know was that in the original gabardine created by Thomas Burberry, the wool thread was coated in lanolin prior to weaving, which gave the fabric it's waterproof, yet breathable characteristic. I don't believe that my gabardine dress pants have the added lanolin. Rather the name refers to the weave of the worsted wool fabric

https://www.chemistryworld.com/podcasts/lanolin/3009285.article

 

[Grey J]

TEO, I bow to your superior knowledge of fabrics! I think it was just a typo on my part, but my research (spurred by your post) shows that gaberdine (with an e) originally referred to a cloak type of garment. This thread has now drifted into a crevasse of gabardine threads.