National Geographic: Remains of Andrew 'Sandy' Irvine believed to have been found on Everest

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Actually, this is fun. I have always been impressed at the effectiveness of very old "pre-technology" fabrics like boiled wool, waxed cotton, etc.. It's amazing what people accomplished hundreds of years ago.

But back on topic, here is the comment I posted over at ADKHighPeaks:

"Well, one foot has been found and positively ID'd. But the rest of his remains, and of course the camera, have not been found. Although finding the foot may increase the odds of finding the rest...

This is interestingly parallel to the finding of Toni Egger's boot (also with his foot still in it) below Cerro Torre. The parallels are uncanny:
>Cesare Maestri claimed that he and Egger had made the summit, and that Egger was killed in an ice avalanche on the way down.
>Most in the mountaineering community believe that the two did not make the summit, for various fairly good reasons.
>Egger had the camera, which has not been found.
>What was found of Egger was one boot, with a foot in it.

Spookily similar.
 
skiguy said:
Nena was at camp at The North Col but not the camp he made his Summit Push from.
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Nope. She was at the camp on the East Rongbuk glacier BELOW the North Col where they had spent some time acclimating and he had made a brief recon climb to the Col. Early on the first day of his summit push he fell into the crevasse on that glacier on the approach to the North Col
 
skiguy said:
Very good points. Messner also went alone, without O's and an army of support. In other words, everything was on his back until he was too exhausted to carry it all. Also don't forget he fell in a crevasse along the way with no one to get himself out by himself. Yes his clothing was superior but he stayed warm even without the benefit of O's which would have made it easier to stay warm. So IMO superior clothing is marginal in the big picture. Also do not forget the moral and psychosocial support of being with others in such an extreme situation. Messner was self-driven and self-supported not to mention he kept his act together.... ALONE. Don't know about you but if I had fallen in a crevasse by myself at 20'000 plus feet, and then self-rescued I think I might have called it a day. Gone back to camp and had a cup of hot tea ready waiting for me that some Sherpa had brewed up. Not discrediting Hillary's accomplishments but this is the problem with this debate. It's not a level playing field.
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You're right it's not an even comparison, but both are among the very greatest of mountaineering achievements. Facing a daunting challenge alone is not to be underestimated. (As someone who does a fair amount of solo bushwhacking and some solo backcountry skiing and winter hiking, I'm familiar with some of the different challenges, but not all) OTH, Messner had previously summitted Everest with Peter Habeler, both without supplemental oxygen. So he knew that he could physically get to the top without oxygen.

I would note that superior clothing and gear can be a the difference between a mission's success or failure and life or death. This is perhaps never more true than in extreme environments. Scott's failure vs. Amundsen's success, was at least partly due to different choices of clothing and equipment. From our desk chairs it may not be possible to ascertain, but in all likelihood, Messner's achievements would not have been physically possible in the early-'50s. In the case of Norgay & Hillary, their ascent came before the advent of front-point crampons, which means that every step on steep snow or ice had to be chopped. That's signifcant amount of additional energy and time to spend. Their heavier and less-warm clothing would have been a taxation not faced by climber's of Messner's era. Supplemental oxygen was still in its infancy at the time of Norgay and Hillary's ascent. In fact they were the second pair from their team to make a summit attempt. The first pair had to abort their attempt due to a failure of their supplemental oxygen. IIRC from one of Hillary's books, Norgay and Hillary were essentially trying to figure out how to make their systems work, and it took some trial and error.

(If it isn't already obvious, I've not soloed any 8km peaks, however, my son and I were the first people to eat ice cream on the summit of Mt. Everest. We went with the now defunct Adventures Indoors Luxepeditions.)Ice Cream on Everest.jpeg
 
OldEric said:
Nope. She was at the camp on the East Rongbuk glacier BELOW the North Col where they had spent some time acclimating and he had made a brief recon climb to the Col. Early on the first day of his summit push he fell into the crevasse on that glacier on the approach to the North Col.
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Thankyou for that correction. I was off by one camp. I had remembered he had an intermediate Camp before the more bivy style camp for the final push. Forgot his sweetie stayed low. I do believe she did climb higher trying to spot him on his decent. Even so more credit to Messner on truly being Solo for the duration. What an Animal that dude is. If I remember correctly he abandoned all his bivy gear to lighten his load at the last Camp because he was so whipped he was afraid he wouldn’t make it back to base camp otherwise. What is even more daunting is the fact this was almost 45 years ago. In perspective only 27 years after Hillary’s success. Talk about balls made of steel. Any other corrections are appreciated.
 
TCD said:
Actually, this is fun. I have always been impressed at the effectiveness of very old "pre-technology" fabrics like boiled wool, waxed cotton, etc.. It's amazing what people accomplished hundreds of years ago.

But back on topic, here is the comment I posted over at ADKHighPeaks:

"Well, one foot has been found and positively ID'd. But the rest of his remains, and of course the camera, have not been found. Although finding the foot may increase the odds of finding the rest...

This is interestingly parallel to the finding of Toni Egger's boot (also with his foot still in it) below Cerro Torre. The parallels are uncanny:
>Cesare Maestri claimed that he and Egger had made the summit, and that Egger was killed in an ice avalanche on the way down.
>Most in the mountaineering community believe that the two did not make the summit, for various fairly good reasons.
>Egger had the camera, which has not been found.
>What was found of Egger was one boot, with a foot in it.

Spookily similar.
Click to expand...
When I started winter hiking in the early 80's, I wore Woolrich wool knickers. They were amazingly warm and even when snow covered performed quite well. I also had two Woolrich Rag wool sweaters that I doubled up for ascents of Washington. There might have been better clothing, but at 18 years old, that's what I found when I started buying hiking clothes. A winter or two later, I walked into IME and found fleece and that was the end of the wool era for me.
 
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OldEric said:
Nope. She was at the camp on the East Rongbuk glacier BELOW the North Col where they had spent some time acclimating and he had made a brief recon climb to the Col. Early on the first day of his summit push he fell into the crevasse on that glacier on the approach to the North Col
Click to expand...
Exactly. Nena was not a climber so remained at Advanced Base Camp (6500 m), about 500 m lower than the North Col, but that 500 m is the most dangerous on the route, as Messner learned when he fell into a crevasse. Nevertheless, after one acclimatization climb to the North Col to cache his sleeping bag, pad, cook stove, and small tent, even taking time for his self-rescue from the crevasse, Messner reached the North Col in about 2 hours on his four-day round trip to the summit. Messner also called an audible just above the North Col and traversed over a mile to avoid the NE Ridge and the infamous First and Second Steps (from the North Col, Noel Odell, of Huntington Ravine fame, caught a glimpse of Mallory and Irvine during a short break in the clouds and thought that they were above the Second Step, which has been surmounted using ladders since the Chinese climbed the route in 1975). In retrospect, most mountaineering scholars think that Odell mistook the First Step for the Second Step. At the end of his long traverse, Messner made a first ascent of the Norton Couloir (named for Major E.F. Norton, who held the altitude record without oxygen at 8750 m from 1924 until 1978, broken by Messner and Habeler two years before Messner’s solo) to access the upper reaches of the mountain. I just re-read Messner’s “Chomolungma - Ascent and Descent” chapter of his ‘The Crystal Horizon’ (Crowood Press, 1989) in which I was reminded how important Nena was in nursing Messner back to the living at ABC following his climb. Messner is now about 80 years old, about the same age as was his mountaineering idol Walter Bonatti who succumbed to cancer in 2011).
 
TEO said:
The first pair had to abort their attempt due to a failure of their supplemental oxygen. IIRC from one of Hillary's books, Norgay and Hillary were essentially trying to figure out how to make their systems work, and it took some trial and error.
Click to expand...
That's not 100% accurate. It's generally accepted that the first pair's goal was one of recon - to get a view of the ridge between the south summit and the main peak if possible. They started from the South Col and used closed circuit oxygen and generally achieved the goal. If they had used open circuit oxygen MAYBE they would have fared better. If they had started from a higher camp as the successful bid 3 days later did - most certainly they would have. It's another one of those controversies that makse great conversation but can never be resolved.

https://www.tranquilkilimanjaro.com...amous-mount-everest-ascent-on-26-may-in-1953/
 
OldEric said:
That's not 100% accurate. It's generally accepted that the first pair's goal was one of recon - to get a view of the ridge between the south summit and the main peak if possible. They started from the South Col and used closed circuit oxygen and generally achieved the goal. If they had used open circuit oxygen MAYBE they would have fared better. If they had started from a higher camp as the successful bid 3 days later did - most certainly they would have. It's another one of those controversies that makse great conversation but can never be resolved.

https://www.tranquilkilimanjaro.com...amous-mount-everest-ascent-on-26-may-in-1953/
Click to expand...
It's been some time since I've read one of Hillary's accounts and I had forgotten that the two attempts were made with different supplemental oxygen systems. None-the-less the article that you cite contridicts the claim that the first pair primary goal was one of recon and affirms my understanding that it was primary because of difficulties with their supplemental oxygen that Bourdillon and Evans didn't reach the summit.

Norgay and Hillary were definitely the second, "backup" summit pair. Backup isn't quite the right word, because Hunt wanted to give both pairs a shot at the summit. It was because Hunt wanted two teams to go for the summit that Bourdillon and Evans started their attempt from the South Col, instead of from a high camp.
 
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