New Adirondack Speed Climbing Record
- Thread starter ColdRiverRun
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BlackSpruce
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"Even more so when they are presented in a positive way."
Yes, wouldn't that be wonderful! Sadly climbers like us are just humans. This past Friday while visiting RedCliff, as one climber put it, we met plenty of hikers having a grand time in spite of the falling mist and more than slightly muddy trails. Still, likely for statistical purpose, a rare few complained that it really was horrible! That negative attitude made us smile as we believed that in spite of their comments they were happy and proud to be on RedCliff.
Yes, wouldn't that be wonderful! Sadly climbers like us are just humans. This past Friday while visiting RedCliff, as one climber put it, we met plenty of hikers having a grand time in spite of the falling mist and more than slightly muddy trails. Still, likely for statistical purpose, a rare few complained that it really was horrible! That negative attitude made us smile as we believed that in spite of their comments they were happy and proud to be on RedCliff.
Tim Seaver
Well-known member
MichaelJ said:
There isn't one, and hopefully there never will be.
Curiously, the people that actually participate in these kinds of challenges, as far as I know, have never expressed the slightest interest in having their record recognized by any organization. The noise invariably comes from hikers who somehow feel slighted by someone zipping across the same peaks it took them years to do, as if it somehow diminishes what they have done.
These challenges aren't about "beating" the hikers, they are about challenging yourself, but I suppose that is a concept that will never be understood by those with a desire to "officiate" everything to death.
BlackSpruce
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Both are based on a honor system and we can add there are almost as many combinations of ways to complete the 46 as there are FORTY-SIXERS.
Little Rickie
New member
Tim Seaver said:
That's what it's all about for me and I'm sure for most others. I'm not going to break any speed records anyway. So those that care, do and those that don't care, don't. What else is new?
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There's no recognizing organization, no standard set of rules, and Jan and Cavedog did not time their clocks similarly. I fail to see, then, how Jan "broke the record". They are both amazing achievements, but unless performed the same or within someone's established guidelines, I fail to see how one supersedes the other. They are *both* records of different achievements, and should not be represented otherwise.
ColdRiverRun
New member
MichealJ, here is the "rules" as guidelines from CaveDog's site. He puts out this stuff for public information to be shared. Note #5 especially. Also, Jan emailed him and got responded to.
Preface
No organizing body regulates, promotes, or records this record. It is up to the individual challenger and his support crew to hold up to the ideals of the Marshall Mountain Madness Ultramarathon(M 3 ) as they have been passed down through heritage and tradition. It is a natural tendency of competitors to try to trim the effort required to break a record. As a record becomes more finetuned, there is inevitable disagreement between challengers as to when it is acceptable to cut corners. No one has written down the rules of the game for this informal record. This piece has been written in an effort to explain some of the idiosyncrasies of this record to the public and to reduce any confusion between future challengers about what it takes to set a new record.
***************************************
Objective
To climb all of the Adirondack 46 High Peaks in the least amount of time.
Rules
1. The Route
There is no set route except that all of the Adirondack High Peaks must be summited .
Each of the 46 peaks must be scaled in a fashion suitable to the mountaineering ethic. However, there is no set of trails or order of mountains required.
2. Provisions
Provisions may be given at any point during the challenge.
3. Vehicles:
Once on a route, one cannot use any form of mechanical or biological devices for propulsion.
Once one has reached a road at the end of a route, overland travel in a vehicle to the starting point of another mountain group is acceptable. A vehicle can be any mechanical device such as cars, trucks, ATV's, bicycles, helicopters, etc., and/or any animals such as horses, mules, people, etc. One must finish the route back to the road before vehicles can be used. Being plucked off the mountain by a helicopter is not acceptable nor is using a bicycle or horse on the trail. This is a record set by the skills and power of the individual mountaineer not through the use of mechanical or biological aid. In the case of Whiteface, which has a road to the top, one must use an established trail. Climbing Whiteface by car is not acceptable.
4. The Clock:
The c lock starts at the base of the first peak climbed and stops at the summit of the last peak.
The clock never stops until all mountains have been climbed in accordance to the rules including the ascent of the first mountain but not the descent of the last mountain. In addition, the approach to the base of the first mountain is off the clock.
5. Do as Much or More as the Last Record Holder:
At a minimum, to set a new record, one must do as much or more as, the current record holder, in less time.
The Marshall Mountain Maddness Ultramarathon has evolved over the years to meet the expectations of the Adirondacks mountaineering community. This evolution has occurred by one record at a time. For example, if the record was established when 42 peaks were recognized as High Peaks, it is up to the challenger to up the ante to 46 peaks, if that is the convention of that time. This is true for all of the rules. Essentially, no additional or more restrictive rules can be established except by the person that makes the next record by following the existing rules and their new rules. One must do at least as much as the last record holder to be considered the new record holder. In addition, one must do the challenge in less time. One cannot break the record by adding more requirements and take longer to do the course. If one does add more to the effort with a longer time span, then they can claim a different record for a different game that goes by a different name. For example, one could climb all of the Adirondacks High Peaks without support or without motorized vehicles. It is up to the Adirondacks mountaineering community to decide if such a distinction is worth noting as a new type of record. In the end, for this record, if one does as much and more, in less time, they have set the new standard by which all future challengers must adhere.
6. Notification
Notify the current record holder of intentions to challenge the record before the attempt.
A challeger, out of respect, should make an effort to give the current record holder a couresty call before an attempt. In doing this, the attempt is tied to the history of the event. It also makes for an easier acceptance of a new record.
7. The Honor System:
The Marshall Mountain Madness Ultramarathon rules are informal and essentially voluntary.
In fact, in the attempt all is essentially informal and voluntary. The 46 peaks must be climbed; however, there is no one set course, there are no officials to record the times, no competitors alongside to provide a gauge of reference. There is only you, the 46 inanimate peaks, the currently recognized record, and your word of honor that you have actually done what you report to have done.
Preface
No organizing body regulates, promotes, or records this record. It is up to the individual challenger and his support crew to hold up to the ideals of the Marshall Mountain Madness Ultramarathon(M 3 ) as they have been passed down through heritage and tradition. It is a natural tendency of competitors to try to trim the effort required to break a record. As a record becomes more finetuned, there is inevitable disagreement between challengers as to when it is acceptable to cut corners. No one has written down the rules of the game for this informal record. This piece has been written in an effort to explain some of the idiosyncrasies of this record to the public and to reduce any confusion between future challengers about what it takes to set a new record.
***************************************
Objective
To climb all of the Adirondack 46 High Peaks in the least amount of time.
Rules
1. The Route
There is no set route except that all of the Adirondack High Peaks must be summited .
Each of the 46 peaks must be scaled in a fashion suitable to the mountaineering ethic. However, there is no set of trails or order of mountains required.
2. Provisions
Provisions may be given at any point during the challenge.
3. Vehicles:
Once on a route, one cannot use any form of mechanical or biological devices for propulsion.
Once one has reached a road at the end of a route, overland travel in a vehicle to the starting point of another mountain group is acceptable. A vehicle can be any mechanical device such as cars, trucks, ATV's, bicycles, helicopters, etc., and/or any animals such as horses, mules, people, etc. One must finish the route back to the road before vehicles can be used. Being plucked off the mountain by a helicopter is not acceptable nor is using a bicycle or horse on the trail. This is a record set by the skills and power of the individual mountaineer not through the use of mechanical or biological aid. In the case of Whiteface, which has a road to the top, one must use an established trail. Climbing Whiteface by car is not acceptable.
4. The Clock:
The c lock starts at the base of the first peak climbed and stops at the summit of the last peak.
The clock never stops until all mountains have been climbed in accordance to the rules including the ascent of the first mountain but not the descent of the last mountain. In addition, the approach to the base of the first mountain is off the clock.
5. Do as Much or More as the Last Record Holder:
At a minimum, to set a new record, one must do as much or more as, the current record holder, in less time.
The Marshall Mountain Maddness Ultramarathon has evolved over the years to meet the expectations of the Adirondacks mountaineering community. This evolution has occurred by one record at a time. For example, if the record was established when 42 peaks were recognized as High Peaks, it is up to the challenger to up the ante to 46 peaks, if that is the convention of that time. This is true for all of the rules. Essentially, no additional or more restrictive rules can be established except by the person that makes the next record by following the existing rules and their new rules. One must do at least as much as the last record holder to be considered the new record holder. In addition, one must do the challenge in less time. One cannot break the record by adding more requirements and take longer to do the course. If one does add more to the effort with a longer time span, then they can claim a different record for a different game that goes by a different name. For example, one could climb all of the Adirondacks High Peaks without support or without motorized vehicles. It is up to the Adirondacks mountaineering community to decide if such a distinction is worth noting as a new type of record. In the end, for this record, if one does as much and more, in less time, they have set the new standard by which all future challengers must adhere.
6. Notification
Notify the current record holder of intentions to challenge the record before the attempt.
A challeger, out of respect, should make an effort to give the current record holder a couresty call before an attempt. In doing this, the attempt is tied to the history of the event. It also makes for an easier acceptance of a new record.
7. The Honor System:
The Marshall Mountain Madness Ultramarathon rules are informal and essentially voluntary.
In fact, in the attempt all is essentially informal and voluntary. The 46 peaks must be climbed; however, there is no one set course, there are no officials to record the times, no competitors alongside to provide a gauge of reference. There is only you, the 46 inanimate peaks, the currently recognized record, and your word of honor that you have actually done what you report to have done.
randomscooter
New member
BlackSpruce said:
Very true. I'd also like to add that for me all the comments help me to know something about my fellow forum members. Which ones I'd like to get to know better, join for a hike, share stories over a beer. And which ones I'd prefer to avoid. There wouldn't be good but for the bad.
I'll wrap up my input to this thread by copying the response I made to Antlerpeak over on ADKHighPeaks forum -
Antlerpeak on ADKHighPeaks forum said:
I doubt you'll get flamed for suggesting that the game could be played with more style, at a higher level so to speak. IMO it would make for an interesting discussion. It is human nature to strive for something higher, whether it be of great import to humankind or just the rules of a silly game.
For starters, I know Jan would agree. Jan and I have had long conversations on this very topic, and it was one of Jan's goals to "elevate the game". In fact Jan did just that on his record setting effort because he started the clock at the Coreys trailhead, whereas Cavedog started at the base of Seymour. And despite this self-imposed disadvantage Jan still bettered Cavedog's time by an hour.
"Self-imposed", now there's an interesting concept. Jan challenged himself to rewrite not only the record but the rules as well. He didn't sit at home and whine about the style of the previous record holder. Instead he set out to do something about it. He imposed constraints upon himself, and by doing so he limited his options, in particular the selection of route. Jan could have used a more efficient route but to him it was more important to address what he considered shortfalls in the rules. He could have shattered Cavedog's record, but he reached for something higher despite putting the odds against himself.
And that's what has been done throughout human history by all of the true adventurers. I can only hope that the next challenger has the same goal of raising the standards. If that is the case then one of these days someone will better Jan's record, and do it in better style. Perhaps someday some great adventurer will defy all the odds and set the 46er speed record in a completely unassisted effort, and with no vehicular support, no food caches, etc. Sounds impossible, but so have many/most great accomplishments before they were done.
And that, by the way, is "how most 46R's got it done". By challenging themselves to reach further than they'd reached before. They ignored the naysayers and the detractors, and took it upon themselves to just do it.
In the meantime, Jan has earned his place on top of the heap. And it couldn't have happened to a better person.
randomscooter
New member
Okay, that one is easy to address. I have to say it never occurred to me that the "er" would cause a problem. I will do my best to not er err e'er again.MichaelJ said:
WinterWarlock
Active member
I've been reading this, and the ADKHighPeak post with interest - for one, what Jan did is unfathomable to this old, beat up body. Likewise, what Leaf did this past weekend, with her Pemi and half loop is also unbelievable. Of course, they have youth on their side! Would that I had been as active at their age - oh well...it's not the years, it's the mileage!
One thing strikes me as odd though...I know Leaf did her hike to raise money for charity, and to create awareness of a cause she holds dear. I'm not sure I understand Jan's motivation, but having said that, most of my friends say the same thing about my attempting the 46 at all...so I suppose it's simply a different viewpoint, and more power to him for wanting to have done this, despite the fact that I can't understand it, doesn't mean he didn't. (Reminds me a bit of the recent book CactusEaters, about the people who hike the PCT, and why they do it)
I also respect Jan's much more subtle approach to this than CaveDog - his self-aggrandizement and inflated self-ego bothered me, and Jan seems to have none of that...
So - I guess I'm in awe, confusion, admiration, and plain old envy about this! Maybe I'll respond again when I figure it all out! In the meantime, let's all hike our own hikes!
Scott
Would that I had been as active at their age - oh well...it's not the years, it's the mileage!One thing strikes me as odd though...I know Leaf did her hike to raise money for charity, and to create awareness of a cause she holds dear. I'm not sure I understand Jan's motivation, but having said that, most of my friends say the same thing about my attempting the 46 at all...so I suppose it's simply a different viewpoint, and more power to him for wanting to have done this, despite the fact that I can't understand it, doesn't mean he didn't. (Reminds me a bit of the recent book CactusEaters, about the people who hike the PCT, and why they do it)
I also respect Jan's much more subtle approach to this than CaveDog - his self-aggrandizement and inflated self-ego bothered me, and Jan seems to have none of that...
So - I guess I'm in awe, confusion, admiration, and plain old envy about this! Maybe I'll respond again when I figure it all out! In the meantime, let's all hike our own hikes!
Scott
Little Rickie
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I just don't understand the fuss and all the energy it's taking that could be directed elsewhere on something more impertant or productive.
David Metsky
Well-known member
Such as posting on message boards.Little Rickie said:I just don't understand the fuss and all the energy it's taking that could be directed elsewhere on something more impertant or productive.
BlackSpruce
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"I just don't understand the fuss and all the energy it's taking that could be directed elsewhere on something more impertant or productive."
What do you mean exactly? Are you talking about climbing or posting?
What do you mean exactly? Are you talking about climbing or posting?
Little Rickie
New member
BlackSpruce said:"I just don't understand the fuss and all the energy it's taking that could be directed elsewhere on something more impertant or productive."
What do you mean exactly? Are you talking about climbing or posting?
The semingly endless and controversial discussions on "official", "rules", "records" etc. It just seems to take away from a great personal accomplishment.
Little Rickie
New member
David Metsky said:Such as posting on message boards.
...........
BlackSpruce
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"The semingly endless and controversial discussions on "official", "rules", "records" etc. It just seems to take away from a great personal accomplishment."
Absolutely, I guess we are all guilty of trails politicking and spinning of the trees...
Absolutely, I guess we are all guilty of trails politicking and spinning of the trees...
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