New Hampshire Fish and Game Search and Rescue Funding Hearing

[Chip]

I think (therefore i spam) ANY retailer who would like to participate could buy from the New Hampshire Outdoor Council, for $1 each, a nice decal that looked "something" like this;

...and sell them for $1.50. The New Hampshire Outdoor Council gives the $1 each to SAR and the retailer makes .50 for their efforts. Final Answer.

 

[Craig]

I read the Epidemiology... study cited previously, and will include some snippets which caught my eye from participating in this thread. Stuff in italics is copied-and-pasted.

Hikers may be a difficult population to reach.......

Intoxication/drugs were believed to have contributed to 4.5% of the incidents.

For an example of the above see post #330

Tim,

I know you aren't into numbers , but this may interest you.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Craig,

Do you think that as a group, VFTT readers are more or less likely to need SAR services than the general population of 'hikers' as identified in the study?

And, do you think that as a group, EMS (or REI, or REI, or ...) customers are more or less likely ... ?

I think that the more-easily targeted, more hardcore 'hikers' (those which we think of when we read the word hiker) are less likely to need SAR. No proof, of course I think there is some merit to the statement that they are difficult to reach as a group.

Maybe a coordinated outreach effort on popular tourist holidays at popular trail heads could help with education. Memorial Day, Columbus Day and Labor Day should cover a lot of ground. I would volunteer to man (as in fisherman ) a table for a day. In general, I tend to practice MYOB when on the trail.

Tim

 

[Craig]

Do you think that as a group, VFTT readers are more or less likely to need SAR services than the general population of 'hikers' as identified in the study?

And, do you think that as a group, EMS (or REI, or REI, or ...) customers are more or less likely ... ?

I think that the more-easily targeted, more hardcore 'hikers' (those which we think of when we read the word hiker) are less likely to need SAR. No proof, of course I think there is some merit to the statement that they are difficult to reach as a group.

I was wondering when someone was going to get around to stating this in plain English. Some have been beating around the bush.

So the question is – Who's really using SAR, us or them, right? Somewhat booshwah.

In the context of this discussion, I see no distinction. SAR awareness should be targeted at all hikers, climbers, skier, fisherman, hunters etc.

“The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.” - Socrates -

Maybe a coordinated outreach effort on popular tourist holidays at popular trail heads could help with education. Memorial Day, Columbus Day and Labor Day should cover a lot of ground. I would volunteer to man (as in fisherman ) a table for a day. In general, I tend to practice MYOB when on the trail.

I think SAR awareness programs are best left to those organizations who have a vested interest in it's effectiveness.

 

[griffin]

So the question is – Who's really using SAR, us or them, right? Somewhat booshwah.

In the context of this discussion, I see no distinction. SAR awareness should be targeted at all hikers, climbers, skier, fisherman, hunters etc.

Consider, though, that as resources are finite, we would want to be smart about who we target. So, does it make sense to spend finite resources targeting people who are more likely to already be familiar with "Hike Safe" etc.? Not to say that VFTT'ers for example don't ever need SAR services, or that we never make mistakes, or always FOLLOW what's on the Hike Safe list. But if we're already aware, targeting us is would be preaching to the choir, no?

Not a booshwah question at all, I think, at least not from an education standpoint; not if your goal is to reduce the need for SAR.

 

[erugs]

Consider, though, that as resources are finite, we would want to be smart about who we target. So, does it make sense to spend finite resources targeting people who are more likely to already be familiar with "Hike Safe" etc.? Not to say that VFTT'ers for example don't ever need SAR services, or that we never make mistakes, or always FOLLOW what's on the Hike Safe list. But if we're already aware, targeting us is would be preaching to the choir, no?

Not a booshwah question at all, I think, at least not from an education standpoint; not if your goal is to reduce the need for SAR.

I agree. It's another way of asking what is a hiker. Hunters and fishermen are easily recognized by their gear, but, for example, lots of school kids carry packs. Does that make them hikers?

 

[Maddy]

It has been my personal experience that the folks I have encountered, who could certainly have benefited from some "hike safe" educational tips, were not in the least bit interested. Those who were courteous and nodded appropriately didn't believe a word of it because they pressed on with their sandals, a can of coke, no map, no pack, shorts and t shirt. I'm sure they all had cell phones in their pockets. When asked where they were heading they proudly proclaim "We are going to climb the mountain".

I warned a friend repeatedly to not do the bogus things she was doing on the rockpile explaining to her that she was borrowing big trouble. She persisted, endangering not only herself but 3 teens as well. She came as close as any of us would want to come to a very bad end, and fortunately for the SAR people took up a new hobby post near death experience.

These folks are from another world. They don't think like we do. It's seems so foreign to them that they just cannot grasp the reality that these mountain command respect, and that disrespecting them can really cost you. And I don't mean money, but that might soon change.

I don't know what the answer it. I know that money talks and perhaps if they think for one moment that it will affect the balance in their checkbook, they might think twice, but I even wonder if that would make an impression.

I think this is one of the biggest reasons why I believe F&G needs to find some way to be reimbursed for going out repeatedly to save their sorry bacon.
These incidents are written up in the Boston papers, the Union Leader, they are broadcast on the news, and they still don't "get it". It's something that happens too someone else. It can't possibly ever happen to them...or so they think.

Over the years I have encountered my share of these people and they keep surfacing. I am not sure what it will take to make a dent in their psyche. It's one life's many mysteries!

 

[Craig]

Consider, though, that as resources are finite, we would want to be smart about who we target. So, does it make sense to spend finite resources targeting people who are more likely to already be familiar with "Hike Safe" etc.? Not to say that VFTT'ers for example don't ever need SAR services, or that we never make mistakes, or always FOLLOW what's on the Hike Safe list. But if we're already aware, targeting us is would be preaching to the choir, no?

Even if you wanted to exclude some imaginary subset of the hiking public from SAR awareness, how would you do it? Give me an example of what you're thinking.

I think the risk one takes is variable beyond his or her knowledge of the risks.
Accident prevention is a mindset. It's an active process of being aware of the consequences of your actions and in-actions.

Some believe, everyone has a certain level of risk their they're willing to accept. As the risk level is perceived to be lower (by erudite or hands on experience) those folks will take greater risks. Some would argue that this group, that you want to exclude, are the greatest risk-takers.

Targeting all users with SAR awareness will help create a mindset, in everyone, that fosters constant accident assessment. You don't have to eat and sleep this stuff but it needs to be in the back of your mind constantly.

Even the boyscouts know this:

An injury that doesn't happen needs no treatment. An emergency that doesn't occur requires no response. An illness that doesn't develop demands no remedy. The best way to stay safe in the outdoors is to avoid getting into trouble in the first place.

SAR awareness goes beyond funding. It's about safety in the backcounty. It's about knowing the dangers your likely to encounter and managing those dangers. It's not about reading bullet points on a hikesafe website. Everyone will benefit from SAR awareness, from the leaf peeper to the hardcore badass. - IMO -

For your consideration.

Risk homeostasis theory

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I left out the conclusion in my snippets from earlier:


Conclusions.—The most prevalent demographic group requiring search-and-rescue efforts in New Hampshire was men aged 30 to 40 years who were hiking and who resided within a 4-hour drive of the area where they encountered difficulty. To decrease the number of people involved in most search and rescue, efforts should be focused on preventing wilderness users from getting lost and preventing lower extremity musculoskeletal injuries. Wilderness deaths may be prevented by focusing attention on cardiac health in wilderness users older than 50 years and on water safety.


Thus, we should install hand rails and cement sidewalks, and make all guys in the 30-40 age range prove they are prepared

I will also chime in that 90.44% of VFTTers believe they are prepared enough to survive 24 hours in typical summer season likely bad conditions (50 degrees, rain, benighted due to non-life-threatening injury.)

I have also seen some evidence of non-receptiveness on the part of people who probably need it.

So Craig, who are you suggesting are "organizations who have a vested interest in it's effectiveness"?

Tim

 

[Craig]

I left out the conclusion in my snippets from earlier:


Conclusions.—The most prevalent demographic group requiring search-and-rescue efforts in New Hampshire was men aged 30 to 40 years who were hiking and who resided within a 4-hour drive of the area where they encountered difficulty. To decrease the number of people involved in most search and rescue, efforts should be focused on preventing wilderness users from getting lost and preventing lower extremity musculoskeletal injuries. Wilderness deaths may be prevented by focusing attention on cardiac health in wilderness users older than 50 years and on water safety.


Thus, we should install hand rails and cement sidewalks, and make all guys in the 30-40 age range prove they are prepared

I will also chime in that 90.44% of VFTTers believe they are prepared enough to survive 24 hours in typical summer season likely bad conditions (50 degrees, rain, benighted due to non-life-threatening injury.)

I have also seen some evidence of non-receptiveness on the part of people who probably need it.
Tim

Other than the fact the thread you sited was fun, is half a loaf (being generous) regarding the issue at hand, I'm unclear on your position. Please clarify your position. I'm curious.

You don't need to speak for everyone else, I'm sure they are capable of voicing their opinions.

So Craig, who are you suggesting are "organizations who have a vested interest in it's effectiveness"?

I'm not suggesting anyone.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

My position is that it will be difficult to educate the least-informed and least-prepared hikers. Certainly this thread has raised awareness for VFTT readers, if any besides a handful are still reading, although the "half a loaf" thread indicates there is already a high awareness (or at least preparedness.)

Can you name even one organization with vested interest in it's effectiveness?

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

BTW, it took seven hours to find an elderly woman (88) who wandered off to the woods in Lincoln while raking leaves....

http://www.wmur.com/news/29836542/detail.html

Tim

 

[forestgnome]

a few thoughts...

-Hunters pay the salaries of those who are paid to police them - bad

-We only have to cover $5.3 million, or take a big bite out of it

-Experts in the field overwhelmingly oppose charging rescuees

-Hikers are not unemployed hippies sleeping in VW vans at trailheads. Hikers are prescious tourists who spend a lot of money in our economy. A $10 yearly pass to fund SAR would have no negative effect on our economy because no reasonable person is going to cancell their trip to the White Mountains over a $10 yearly fee.

-Although the whole state benefits from the tourism of hikers, a tax hike probably won't fly.

 

[Craig]

My position is that it will be difficult to educate the least-informed and least-prepared hikers. Certainly this thread has raised awareness for VFTT readers, if any besides a handful are still reading, although the "half a loaf" thread indicates there is already a high awareness (or at least preparedness.)Tim

Through your questions and your 2007 poll example you have insinuated that VFFT members would not benefit from an outreach education program because of their elite status. Others in this thread have been tip-toeing around this as well. This has been an ongoing charge, from some views members, for years.

So Tim, is this elitism? If it is, please thoroughly explain your position, and your justification for your opinion as I have done for mine.
If it is elitism, wear it proudly.

You can't just cut n run when the discussion becomes difficult.

This is suppose to be an exchange of ideas. I would like to thoroughly understand your position.

Can you name even one organization with vested interest in it's effectiveness?

No

 

[Tim Seaver]

BTW, it took seven hours to find an elderly woman (88) who wandered off to the woods in Lincoln while raking leaves....

Fish and Game officers found Henry Tuesday night. She was discovered in a wooded area in Lincoln. She was cold but safe, they said.

With a snow storm bearing down on the area, rescue crews said they knew they had to find Henry fast.

SEE? Another irresponsible person heading out willy-nilly without checking the forecast, puttin' our rescue peeps and tax dollars at risk! ARRRRGH! I hope they charge her a BUNDLE! Didn't she read the "Wander Safe" guidebook?

( triple sarcasm indicators)

 

[Maddy]

Through your questions and your 2007 poll example you have insinuated that VFFT members would not benefit from an outreach education program because of their elite status. Others in this thread have been tip-toeing around this as well. This has been an ongoing charge, from some views members, for years.

So Tim, is this elitism? If it is, please thoroughly explain your position, and your justification for your opinion as I have done for mine.
If it is elitism, wear it proudly.

You can't just cut n run when the discussion becomes difficult.

This is suppose to be an exchange of ideas. I would like to thoroughly understand your position.
No

"Others in this thread have been tip-toeing around this as well." (quote from above)
My recent post might be interpreted as "tip -toeing around this".
I don't believe for minute that we are "elitist" but we are "different". Hiking for many us is a very integral part of our lives. I, for one, wanted lots of advice from experienced hikers. I read everything I could get my hands on relating to this topic. Still do in fact.
Start each day with coffee and VFTT. ( Does drinking Starbucks make me elitist? )

There are some folks who appear very interested in hearing and heeding any warnings or educations tips that are are offered by folks who have much to share.

And then there are those who I described in my recent post. Simply said they don't appear to want to hear it or heed it. As E Rugs said because you put a pack on does not make you a hiker. And then there are those who never even bother with pack, the map, the water bottle, the foul weather, etc. etc. etc. They willy nilly just go forth to "climb the mountain."

Because we identify that this just might be a little problem does not make us "elitist". It's simple a fact, certainly something that I, and many others, have observed on many more than one occasion when hiking.

I have often felt that I am the "outreach education program". I try and sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. Can I benefit from an "outreach educational program". I do every day starting at about 6am. I learn about the best routes, the finest traction boots, the warmest lightest clothes, the most practical packs, the newest maps, the weather. I learn from others mistakes. All of you are my "outreach program."


Will I continue my "outreach program" when I meet those who appear to be in critical need of hearing it? YES! I don't care it they heed it or not. I have done my part to help educate them and hopefully they will absorb my input and take necessary precautions. If they do not, so be it. Live and learn. Sometimes "experiential learning" is best. Hopefully the price won't be too steep.

I hesitated posting last evening on this topic because my first thought was just that. Someone will surely think I am "elitist". Being an "experienced hiker" I forged ahead and shared it regardless. No guts, no glory! OR better still...NO GUTS, NO GREENIE! I don't understand why we even need to be caught up in this word "elitist." IMHO it serves no purpose except possibly to stifle someone from expressing themselves.

 

[Maddy]

SEE? Another irresponsible person heading out willy-nilly without checking the forecast, puttin' our rescue peeps and tax dollars at risk! ARRRRGH! I hope they charge her a BUNDLE! Didn't she read the "Wander Safe" guidebook?

( triple sarcasm indicators)

Poor Henry.

I like the idea of a Wander Safe" guidebook!

 

[Tim Seaver]

Emily Post is Watching

You can't just cut n run when the discussion becomes difficult.

This is suppose to be an exchange of ideas. I would like to thoroughly understand your position.

Speaking of clarity, understanding, and the polite exchange of ideas...oh, and cutting and running:

I am not clear at all what you mean when you say:

I think SAR awareness programs are best left to those organizations who have a vested interest in it's effectiveness.

And when Tim asks:

Can you name even one organization with vested interest in it's effectiveness?

Your reply is "No".

This exchange leaves the impression that there are organizations that you think might have a vested interest, yet you are unwilling or unable to name them. Can you clarify? Who ARE these mysterious forces that need to step up to the plate and educate away all these bothersome rescue needs?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I am not suggesting that VFTTers are elite, or snobs, or in some way superior to others, or would not benefit from SAR awareness education (what exactly this is, you have not said specifically, or if you did, I missed it.) I am suggesting, and citing what little evidence I have to support that suggestion, that

A) People who regularly read and participate in VFTT discussions are more experienced than the average hiker.
B) People who regularly shop at REI, EMS, MountainGear, etc., are more experienced than the average hiker.
C) More experienced people are generally better prepared and thus less likely to get into trouble. (I'm not suggesting they are less susceptible to injury, but I am suggesting that they probably have a map, compass, and flashlight with them and know how to use each.

D) People who do not fall into any of the above are probably more difficult to reach from an awareness or educational point of view. If you disagree, by all means make a point. For example, how are you going to reach that 88 year old woman who wandered away from her yard? Or that family that in the late afternoon drives past a sign for a waterfall, stops, explores and gets lost or injured and has nothing but the clothes on their back? And is it really elitism on my part to ask that? I think not.

Put another way, I want to achieve maximum bang for my educational buck.

This is all just my opinion, of course. At your insistence, I have tried to provide sources from which I have formed my opinions, but they are nothing more than that - my opinions - presented for consideration, discussion, amusement, picking-apart, etc.

My position overall can be summarized:

I am a resident of NH, and I pay property taxes here, and my kids are educated in the public schools, so I derive services from the state which are, in some large part, funded by that tourist business. I consider SAR a cost of being in the tourism business and as a state we should accept that and pay for it with revenues generated as a result of the tourism business, i.e., the general fund from rooms and meals taxes. I am entirely in favor of sending wreckless people a bill. I am still waiting for a working definition of negligence as written in the latest statutes so that I can be certain I am not going to be found negligent.

I don't feel that SAR has exceeded a level of spending that necessitates an expenditure on education to reduce it, but as a human being, concerned about my fellow human beings, I am interested in what can be done to reduce morbidity and mortality.

Beyond this, I am not adamant, merely interested, curious, and engaged. I'm asking questions that I am pretty sure others are also wondering. Not many are replying, but the number of views on this thread is still in the hundred-per-day range.

Tim

 

[Craig]

Put another way, I want to achieve maximum bang for my educational buck.

Tim

Thank you for clarifying that for me Tim. Hopefully you can find a way to identify and exclude the subset of hikers you don't want to spend money to educate.

I haven't been concerned about how many peeps have been reading this thread per hour, day, week or year. I thought the 2nd half of this thread was about having an intelligent, factual exchange of ideals on substantive issues effecting the hiking community.

However, if I was mistaken and it's really about lurkers waiting for that “gotcha” moment to jump in with a quick one-liner or a prepared quip and idiom, than this is the wrong conversation for me.

While I understand the need for some to behave this way, I believe in the short term it brings nothing of value to the discussion and in the long term stifles the free flow of information.

If this is the case, I'll leave the rest of this conversation to the entertainers trying to perfect their standup.

Happy Thanksgiving folks, I'm gone for the holiday weekend.