not without peril

[king tut]

after a recent read of the book and a recent thread question, i was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what was the most ill-advised trip in the whites in the book? and what was the worst/stupidest decision?

 

[cp2000]

I cant recall the names but I would say the three guys that went up there without food and expected to bum stuff off other hikers.

 

[Tramper Al]

Not without precedant

I have always enjoyed the book, though I find it a little heavy-handed. The decisions are judged in light of the outcome.

Pretty much all of the "worst/stupidest decisions" made by these victims are actually repeated very frequently, some every day.

Who among us has never:

Hiked on little or no sleep.
Carried few or inadequate calories.
Brought inadequate wind or rain gear.
Worn cotton.
Carelessly run out of water.
Ignored signs of fatique, hunger, dehydration, or mild hypothermia.
Found the route that we chose took way longer than expected.
Packed too heavy.
Packed too light.
Run out of daylight.
Lost or forgotten the map.
Crossed a swollen stream by means other than a proper bridge.
Encountered colder, windier, wetter, icier, or more snowy conditions that we anticipated.
Brought others on longer/bigger hikes than they were quite ready for.
And so on and so on.

For the most part, these tragedies are accompanied by a fatal constellation of factors, including bad (but very common) decisions, weather, and a good dose of bad luck.

I think it's fairly easy to assign blame to key decisions and conditions after the fact. But most of the "worst/stupidest decisions" are not in themselves fatal, nor are they at all rare, even today. I see them all the time in trip reports, and those are just the people who are talking about their mistakes.

Just the other day, I hiked cold, wet, tired, and hungry, more miles for the day than I ever had previously with an overnight pack. A walk in the park. Had I been swept downstream by the wicked river crossing late in the day, I'd have been considered an idiot. Instead, I came home thinking I am a righteous dude.

 

[Neil]

....
Who among us has never:....
Found the route that we chose took way longer than expected.
....

I find almost every return trip back to the car takes longer than I expected!

I don't know the book but I assume it's about tragedies and their causes. I agree that there are probably a constellation of factors that are compounded by plenty of bad weather and bad luck.

All in all I've always considered hiking and camping (winter included) to be rather benign activities that would require a truly rare combination of factors to end up tragically. Obviously, it does happen on occasion and we should all think about it whenever we go out.
My wife was on Algonquin yesterday and saw the usual assortment of jeans, sneakers and tiny fanny packs in spite of a ranger at the trailhead warning people of possible thunderstorms. I would bet that everyone got up and down safely.

 

[king tut]

good points al, i think everyone has done stupid things while hiking or doing other outdoor sports. i wasn't particularly stunned by the decisions people made on the mt's, it is hard to say exactly what the situations were and what they were thinking, they are the only ones who know. in most cases the biggest mistakes though were made before those people started hiking, just not being prepared enough for the elements and not paying enough attention to the weather forecast.

 

[RGF1]

Damn Al where on a roll. though I did not find the book quite as heavy handed as you did. . I agree we have all made some mistakes regardless of reason.
I bet at one time we have all done at least one of the things you listed .
But Knowing abit about the Jeremy Haas Derek Tinkham saga , I think Jermemy Haas was almost entierly to blame for that tragedy. He refused to turn around even when he knew thet Derek was in serious truoble. he could have made it to both treeline and Gray Knob with in a reasonable amount of time with Derek He as the more experinced hiker and ( I use the term loosely )" leader"should have been and may well have been aware of Derek"s rapidly deteriotaing condtion. . Instead he choose and talked Derek into pushing on into in conditions that can only be described as horrific ,brutal and deadly. It should be noted he had a hsitory of such behavior and was told he could not lead trips for the UNH outing Club he quit the club in response. Perhaps Arrogance . perhaps he thought or believed he had more skills and ablities than he did perhaps he just thought he was the next Messner who knows for sure ? Unquestionably he did not give a rats butt about any one else.
I am not sure where and if I am quoting Hass correctly but he had said something close to "This will be the most painful and difficult thing you will experinnce. " I cannot find the Artical it is in. A seach of either the Boston Globe archives or the Union leader might have it .
But The quotes By Al Comeau are both revealing and in a way disturbing.
From Nicolas Howes Book Not with out Peril.
" Later there was time for reflection. Like
many members of the recovery groups, Andy
Orsini had instinctively shut out the
emotional aspects of the job in order to get
on with it. By Tuesday this insulation had
turned to anger. He had the newspaper account
and read that if he had any regrets, Jeremy
had said "Yes, I wish I'd brought mittens
instead of gloves." Andy was so appalled
that he called the newspaper to verify the
remark. "It's something I have to live with,"
said Al Comeau, "seeing Derek there. He was a
victim of Jeremy's state of mind and over-
ambitiousness. That one really bothered me." "

Once in a great while some one lets thier ambtion , ego and possibley over inflated sense of abilities and or need to "prove " something gets some one killed in the mountains. .
I have a feeling that similar things were going on during the 1996 tragedy on Everest.
A experinced hiker ,climber, skier ect can get hurt we call it a unforseen accident or a tragedy. . A novice does the exact same thing and we call him or her a idiot and heap scorn and dersion on them In some cases it is a matter of perception .
But The Derek Tinkam Jeremy Hass incident has always been something I found disturbing .

 

[Neil]

in most cases the biggest mistakes though were made before those people started hiking

You just the nail right on the head.

 

[sapblatt]

The Macdonald Barr story also hits me the hardest as it seems to have been so avoidable. A very expereinced hiker kept pushing for a summit where every piece of the puzzle pointed towards getting his party quickly to shelter. They continued to push on towards the summit of Madison in a fierce storm and I find it miraculous that only Macdonald died. His son and some of the hut crew could have easily died out there as well.

 

[--M.]

RGF1 had it first: Tinker/Haas most of all:

A friend in trouble and you keep going? This one blew my mind. Other than having the poor judgment of hypothermia himself, there is no justification for leaving a struggling partner in poor conditions. Now add the severity of both 'struggling' and 'poor,' and I can't see how one can excuse Haas' decisions. Then, of course, he still didn't recognize his error, even after the fact; it just added up to blame, for me.

The MacDonald/Barr thing was puzzling, as to how easily the dad fell victim, as in it seems the closest to being repeatable, but I didn't feel blame there, just explainable poor judgment. It's a good example of a cautionary tale.


.

 

[RGF1]

RGF1 had it first: Tinker/Haas most of all:

A friend in trouble and you keep going? This one blew my mind. Other than having the poor judgment of hypothermia himself, there is no justification for leaving a struggling partner in poor conditions. Now add the severity of both 'struggling' and 'poor,' and I can't see how one can excuse Haas' decisions. Then, of course, he still didn't recognize his error, even after the fact; it just added up to blame, for me.

The MacDonald/Barr thing was puzzling, as to how easily the dad fell victim, as in it seems the closest to being repeatable, but I didn't feel blame there, just explainable poor judgment. It's a good example of a cautionary tale.


.

The MacDonald / Barr incident is very sad . I am sure misjudgement and maybe sentiment played a role . It is Puzzleing
Haas on the other hand is one of the very few who I would have anything harsh to say about. There is not any mystery as to why he continued in the face of what were exceedingly brutal condtions. He wanted to say he did it under thoes condtions to prove how "great he was "
As the interveiws with him reveal he has not one scintilla of remorse for his actions . It is as if he is unconcerned that his actions and uncompromising desire to see his plan though led to a person dying. . He may well have had the attitude of I'll show the UNH outing club . I seems he had a domineering and over bearing personality and never took others into consideration at all .
I believe there is a term coined by North Amrican mountaineers after him it is called " Haased" meaning your partner led you into a deadly or dangrous situation and when things fell a apart left you to your fate.
I for one would never leave a climbing or hiking partner . I might run a short ways if I heard some one approaching and ask them to summon help but I would not leave .
Yes that one is a distubing tale. I understand that it has haunted the SAR crews that responded to this day. I know It would me . I am glad that my SAR experince out west have been helping a person with a broken leg or dehydration along with AMS at least they lived , got well and were not led into it by a sociopath. I do not know how I would deal Haas's overblown ego and lack of concern for his partner and inablity to accept resposnbilty.
I am not sure but I thought the Tinkham family brought Haas to court for wrongful death. and won . I would be greatful if it were true and could be verified.

 

[sp1936]

I found the deaths of father Bill Curtis and Allen Ormsbee the most compelling. Strong, experienced hikers, done in by hubris.

Tramper Al's take is particularly interesting to me, since I had an unpleasant encounter with my own stupidity this past weekend. I was nearly done in by dehydration on the Mt. Tremont Trail on Friday. Completely avoidable. I barely made it down with the help of my family. It hit me suddenly, and I was almost completely helpless.

My doctor warned me that I had to be more careful about hydration while taking blood pressure medication. I didn't listen. Age may make some people wiser; not me, apparently.

Steve

 

[Puck]

I have always been intrigued by this topic. My opinions have changed over time and according to the latest book or article I have read. I have gone from being harshly judgmental of the individuals in these situations to being intrigued by the psychology of these individuals.
"Deep Survival" talks about chaos theory. We live in a world that is on the verge of catastrophy all the time. As mentioned it takes a chain of events that would destroy us. For example I hiked to Mt Tom in March on a beatiful warm day. On the sumit I met a guy who was in shorts only. There was still a good 2-3 foot base of snow. If the temp had gone up a few more degrees we would have started to post hole. I had snowshoes he didn't, I had extra water, food, clothes, first aid kit, map and compas, experience and knowledge of the area. He didn't. If he had twisted an anckle or hyperextended a knee he could have died unless somebody like me came along. We both made it off the mountain. (I never saw him again so I can only assume) So we both had a great day on the mountain. He feels like he doesn't need to worry about the things I worry about. He is only motivated by the pleasure principle. They are not thinking. He does not have a conceptual framework for how close to a mishap he was.

For some very complex psychological reasons people set off ill prepared or find they can't trun back. Then it is to late.

 

[KayakDan]

My wife and I were at Madison Hut one evening last August(our first summer hike and full service hut) and we were chatting with some new hikers who were asking about what gear to carry. We were explaining the unpredicatability of conditions,and the need to be prepared for a wide variety of conditions. I was relating the Macdonald Barr incident to them, because it was August,and Madison Hut. The AMC hut volunteer joined us just at that point,and his look became very serious."I was here-I was the scout leader-I was here that night-it was an awful night"
I was just blown away. The pages of the book became a real life situation heard from a witness to a tragedy.

 

[Double Bow]

Al said it best. We've all done foolish things, most of us for no good reason. I think that most people who take foolish risks are simply illprepared and not evil-minded like Haas.

It's a scary to look back on some of our close calls. I remember my first 4K back in school 11years ago. Me and three friends (all of us had never really hiked before) climbed Mt Adams (we knew we couldn't do Mt Washington). We brought no food, water, layers, flashlights,... nothing. Just the clothes on our backs. We wound up decending in the dark, nervous as hell. Thankfully, on this August day, we had good weather.

It is remembering this and thinking of what could have happened to us and how we could have been one of those tragic tales that makes me the extra cautious, extra prepared hiker I am today.

Now, I always carry more of everything than what I "need". I do this not just for my own safety but, because you never know who you are going to come across and what sort of help they may need. Just this past weekend, my extra water and extra layers helped others on seperate trips.

I hope that others think this way as well when they are packing their packs.

 

[king tut]

i can attest to the weather changing quickly and catching you off guard. I went to ski tuckerman's back in late may of 96 i believe, it was the year of the record snows in the ravine. When we parked at pinkham, it must have been 55 or 60 degrees and drizzle. by the time we got up to the lunch rocks it was very cold and the drizzle had turned into 6 inches of snow with a strong sustained wind. it took about 10 minutes with my dad's help to put on my ski boots as they were completely frozen as well as my feet. We only made one trip down the headwall above the lunch rocks and kept skiing down to hermit lake. once down from there it wasn't bad, but the ravine was sure nasty that day.

 

[J&A]

I remember on my first solo backpacking trip I decide to go to a remote area in the George Washington NF in western Virginia. It was late February and there was about 2 feet of unbroken snow all the way to the summits of the two peaks I wanted to reach. The evening after I got to the first summit, about six miles in, I noticed that while staking out my tent, my water supply had for the most part leaked out completely--dousing my sleeping bag and leaving me without much water for the next day. I spent that sleepless night contemplating whether I'd turn around and go home then, wait for the morning, or try and do the rest of the hike (about 3 mi to the next peak) and return. A few hours before sunrise, I woke up and decided I'd boil some water. Unfortunately, the water that had leaked had also rendered my matches useless. I spent a few hours trying to whittle down a stick and use it to start a fire. For all my efforts, I couldn't get a fire started, but felt that all this time I'd spent trying meant that I have to get to that next peak. I was surely the only person on this mountain on this particular weekday, but some delusional thought kept entering my mind of running into another hiker who I would offer $20 for a swig of water. It never happened. I set off anyhow, thinking to myself--worse comes to worse, I'm surrounded by 2 feet of untouched snow all around, I'll just drink the snow. You don't really have a sense for how unsatisfying and painfully slow the nourishment you get from melting and drinking snow is until you've done it. And if you have to do it, don't rely on your body heat to melt the water--the snow will form balls of ice which have very high heat capacities and will not melt unless time is spent tediously crushing them. The best thing I found was to stuff the container with snow and then place it in an area where the sun can directly shine onto it. I made the second summit and returned to the car, never being more excited about a bottle of water in my life.

Sometimes no matter how prepared you are, there are still other things to consider like, how reliable your gear is, and what do you do if it fails. Hopefully people don't often get stuck in these kinds of unfortunate situations.

 

[RGF1]

i can attest to the weather changing quickly and catching you off guard. I went to ski tuckerman's back in late may of 96 i believe, it was the year of the record snows in the ravine. When we parked at pinkham, it must have been 55 or 60 degrees and drizzle. by the time we got up to the lunch rocks it was very cold and the drizzle had turned into 6 inches of snow with a strong sustained wind. it took about 10 minutes with my dad's help to put on my ski boots as they were completely frozen as well as my feet. We only made one trip down the headwall above the lunch rocks and kept skiing down to hermit lake. once down from there it wasn't bad, but the ravine was sure nasty that day.

Yes the weather sur can change quick at times. I remeber taking friend upo Tucks on a Columbus day weekend . The day stated ok some clouds and snow had fallen over night leaving a dsuting making ofr some of my favorite fall foliage photos in the NE. We had a nice hike up to the bowl and thecouilds got a little thicker . I though well We will see how it goes. Not much wind hear or up high having asked other hikers coming down .
As we made good time up the headwall and reached the Juntion with the Davis path and The crossover to lakes . The snow flurries had become a steady wet quickly falling snow but not much wind you do couild see over 200 ft sso we said we see if it get any aorse we will turn around . Well we made it a maybe 200 yards or less of the Auto road. I could not see very far and knowing the route back Looked at her and said lets get out of here it is going ot get very bad. the wind is pciking up . and I can barely see a 50 ft. . Popel in every thing from high end gore tex to a plastic sheet were making thier way up . )we later learend the all were brought doen on the auto road. Bt the time I got to ther Lionm head trqil ter waa good six inches of snweo and peope wre slipping, sliding and wisely truning back. i got soeme cool photos as I felt safe agwain on a easy to find trail . The snow did not let up untill we got with in a mile of Pinkham of course . then it cleard of leaving snow capeed peaks with fall foliage the next AM .
We retreated to get a some beers and pizza deliversd to out room . !
I still wonder what was with the guys holdoind the plastic sheet over them . as they hiked. but that time all ended well!

 

[sierra]

I started out hiking (alot solo) when I was 15 yrs old. I could have filled half of the book with my own epics and mistakes. Luckely I learned from every mistake as I went along and managed to survive the learning curve.
With that in mind, Ive always tried to be understanding, when others meet trouble in the hills, even when its all on them for their mistakes, we all have made mistakes in the hills as in life.
Although the "Tinkam/haas" case is different, I beleive that man killed his friend in a moment of complete selfishness, sad to say but sometimes we own the blame and must take our medicine.

 

[jjmcgo]

Where's Jeremy Haas?

Does anyone know if he is still around? I googled the name and found a guy with a rock-climbing website and one who is involved in a hiking group around Keene Valley, N.Y.
Anyone know if that's the same person?

 

[Double Bow]

It would be scary to think that he might be leading others again...