askus3
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Looking at the list makes me wonder what is the difference between a gap, notch, pass, hollow (Mink) & (Ice) gulch?
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Notches or Gaps without highways?
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David Metsky
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Their names.askus3 said:
Seriously, it's just local tradition modified by time and personal whim. In NH, it's almost always Notch except for the few Passes. In my mind, notch implies a little more dramatic and low passage, while pass is for higher elevation places with steeper approaches.
But beyond that it's mostly local choice.
-dave-
ecc
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Mark S., you are the man! Does anyone know more about the Catskills than you do?
I really appreciate your knowledge and expertise.
ecc
PS. If we made a list of unnamed notches, how would we refer to them. GPS coordinates perhaps? Or just "the notch between the north side of so and so and the south side of whatchmacallit?
I really appreciate your knowledge and expertise.
ecc
PS. If we made a list of unnamed notches, how would we refer to them. GPS coordinates perhaps? Or just "the notch between the north side of so and so and the south side of whatchmacallit?
Mark Schaefer
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What's in a name, or no name?
Because of the long history of human habitation most everything in the Catskills has a name, sometimes a silly or fanciful name. If some of the smaller Catskill notches were in the larger northern mountains they would probably be overlooked and nameless. I didn't mention Elfin Pass previously as it is no more than a cleft in the rocks in North Lake State Park near the Catskill Mountain House site. Indeed it would take a very small elf to think of it as a pass. Also I should have mentioned that the Wagon Wheel Gap on Ashokan High Point is also known as Goblin Gulch (or Gap).
To identify nameless notches, it is probably enough just to name the adjacent mountains. At first I was thinking of the pass between Colden and Marcy in the Adirondacks, but that has a name: Lake Arnold Pass. Another is the notch that separates Cliff and Redfield. Many people call that a saddle, but it shows signs of being glacial notch carved by water draining from melting glaciers. It is fairly impressive viewed from the south from the abandoned Twin Brook trail. If that notch was in the Catskills it would have a name.
Because of the long history of human habitation most everything in the Catskills has a name, sometimes a silly or fanciful name. If some of the smaller Catskill notches were in the larger northern mountains they would probably be overlooked and nameless. I didn't mention Elfin Pass previously as it is no more than a cleft in the rocks in North Lake State Park near the Catskill Mountain House site. Indeed it would take a very small elf to think of it as a pass. Also I should have mentioned that the Wagon Wheel Gap on Ashokan High Point is also known as Goblin Gulch (or Gap).
To identify nameless notches, it is probably enough just to name the adjacent mountains. At first I was thinking of the pass between Colden and Marcy in the Adirondacks, but that has a name: Lake Arnold Pass. Another is the notch that separates Cliff and Redfield. Many people call that a saddle, but it shows signs of being glacial notch carved by water draining from melting glaciers. It is fairly impressive viewed from the south from the abandoned Twin Brook trail. If that notch was in the Catskills it would have a name.
TomEske
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Very high level of knowledge in this thread. I thought I knew a lot about the Catskills, but Mark S. always blows me away.
One small point I wanted to add because I didn't see it mentioned. Mink Hollow (the one between Sugarloaf and Plateau) actually does have a road. Granted it has not been used in many years, but it was in fact the first road that crossed from the southern to the northern Catskills, before the rail bed and road were put in by the Fenwick Lumber company to pull wood from the Hunter area (now Rt. 214). The Mink Hollow Road started out as a bark road, then later became a logging road, then a transport road to take the hides that originated in South America and landed in Kingston, up to the tanneries in the Hunter-Tannersville area.
The road is still quite visible, and a pleasant walk, but getting hit by natural erosion. A very nice day hike up to the col. Be careful at the first stream crossing near the trailhead, this water can be 40-100 feet across and moving swiftly. 2 weeks ago we did it with just a slight challenge, but when the heavy spring rains hit, be very careful.
Happy Trails,
Tom
One small point I wanted to add because I didn't see it mentioned. Mink Hollow (the one between Sugarloaf and Plateau) actually does have a road. Granted it has not been used in many years, but it was in fact the first road that crossed from the southern to the northern Catskills, before the rail bed and road were put in by the Fenwick Lumber company to pull wood from the Hunter area (now Rt. 214). The Mink Hollow Road started out as a bark road, then later became a logging road, then a transport road to take the hides that originated in South America and landed in Kingston, up to the tanneries in the Hunter-Tannersville area.
The road is still quite visible, and a pleasant walk, but getting hit by natural erosion. A very nice day hike up to the col. Be careful at the first stream crossing near the trailhead, this water can be 40-100 feet across and moving swiftly. 2 weeks ago we did it with just a slight challenge, but when the heavy spring rains hit, be very careful.
Happy Trails,
Tom
ecc
Member
I have heard of Wagon Wheel Gap in association with High Point, but is it the notch at the top of the Kanape trail? Or is it the lower, more pronounced notch that you see when looking at High Point from the weir on the Ashokan?
ecc
ecc
funkyfreddy
Well-known member
I love the responses so far in this thread! I was really tired the night I posted it, didn't even think or remember Carrigain, Zealand, etc. and many other places I've walked through. I got a lot of information from asking a simple question and would like to thank everyone. If you think of anymore keep posting!
As life has its ups and downs/peaks and valleys, so do the forests. I like exploring the valleys, ponds, lakes, trails, abandoned ruins and abandoned roads almost as much as I do the peaks. Mark's posts have now made me even more commited to exploring Ashokan High Point a lot more extensively than I have so far.
I've been starting to leaf through the Michael Kudish "The Catskill Forest" book a bit. I'd love to get some trips together with VFTTer's soon and explore some of these cloves, gaps, notches in the Catskills. Thanks, Fred
As life has its ups and downs/peaks and valleys, so do the forests. I like exploring the valleys, ponds, lakes, trails, abandoned ruins and abandoned roads almost as much as I do the peaks. Mark's posts have now made me even more commited to exploring Ashokan High Point a lot more extensively than I have so far.
I've been starting to leaf through the Michael Kudish "The Catskill Forest" book a bit. I'd love to get some trips together with VFTTer's soon and explore some of these cloves, gaps, notches in the Catskills. Thanks, Fred
TomEske
Member
Wagon Wheel Gap is the one to the left of Ahokan High Point when you are looking at it from the weir.
Fred: you make an interesting point and it is ironic that you mention Mike's book at the same time. It was from that book that I learned that you can tell more about the forest history by looking in the low spots, than in the high spots. More specificly, the bogs that are spread through the Catskills contain much of it's history in layers going back many thousands of years. As you read you'll see that Mike has a 'thing' for bogs, and you'll also learn why. I can't wait to go out with Mike on one of his survey hikes in the coming months. If I can arrange it, Mark S. may be joining us also. We'll let you know what we learn.
Tom
Fred: you make an interesting point and it is ironic that you mention Mike's book at the same time. It was from that book that I learned that you can tell more about the forest history by looking in the low spots, than in the high spots. More specificly, the bogs that are spread through the Catskills contain much of it's history in layers going back many thousands of years. As you read you'll see that Mike has a 'thing' for bogs, and you'll also learn why. I can't wait to go out with Mike on one of his survey hikes in the coming months. If I can arrange it, Mark S. may be joining us also. We'll let you know what we learn.
Tom
JJwilliams
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railroad notch is where the old tote road and rail ran on the back side of porter, my great uncle was a road monkey there for one winter, it once had roads in it same as many of the other passes, notches, gaps and cuts listed in the adirondacks.
are we looking for passes that never had roads or just don't have used ones at the moment?
are we looking for passes that never had roads or just don't have used ones at the moment?
Mark Schaefer
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JJ, it looks like we already have both notches with and without former roads, so both are fair game. Did your great uncle work on the railroad or the tote road through the Railroad Notch? The guidebooks (both ADK and Discover the Adirondacks) seem to imply that the railroad was surveyed but never built. Or perhaps construction started but never completed? Or maybe I am misreading them. Just curious. Books can also be wrong.
Wagon Wheel Gap There are two gaps on the eastern ridge of Ashokan High Point. Wagon Wheel Gap (on the far right side of this topo) is the lower/eastern gap at an elevation of 1340', with Little Point 1560' to its east. It can be difficult to see from the weir or the eastern edge of the reservoir. From that angle you can see the higher nameless notch between Ashokan High Point 3080' and what is sometimes called Little High Point 2800'. Resize the topo to medium or large to get a better overall view. Wagon Wheel Gap is on private property, and I have never been there. The state land boundary is the jagged line on the topo and it bisects the open meadow on the 2800' Little High Point. Wagon Wheel Gap is best viewed from Samsonville Road. It also is quite visible from various locations at Mohonk and Minnewaska in the Shawangunks.
I remember seeing a good magazine article on Wagon Wheel Gap sometime in the last decade. I thought it was in Kaatskill Life as that magazine has a frequent column titled "The Catskill Geologist" written by Professor Robert Titus, but I could not find it. So I now thinking it was in the New York State Conservationist. I am still looking for it. The name refers to the Wagon Wheel advance of the Wisconsinan ice sheet some 17,000 years ago. The Wagon Wheel advance is largely responsible for the notches on the Devil's Path, Deep Notch and the Westkill Valley, and Grand Gorge.
Wagon Wheel Gap There are two gaps on the eastern ridge of Ashokan High Point. Wagon Wheel Gap (on the far right side of this topo) is the lower/eastern gap at an elevation of 1340', with Little Point 1560' to its east. It can be difficult to see from the weir or the eastern edge of the reservoir. From that angle you can see the higher nameless notch between Ashokan High Point 3080' and what is sometimes called Little High Point 2800'. Resize the topo to medium or large to get a better overall view. Wagon Wheel Gap is on private property, and I have never been there. The state land boundary is the jagged line on the topo and it bisects the open meadow on the 2800' Little High Point. Wagon Wheel Gap is best viewed from Samsonville Road. It also is quite visible from various locations at Mohonk and Minnewaska in the Shawangunks.
I remember seeing a good magazine article on Wagon Wheel Gap sometime in the last decade. I thought it was in Kaatskill Life as that magazine has a frequent column titled "The Catskill Geologist" written by Professor Robert Titus, but I could not find it. So I now thinking it was in the New York State Conservationist. I am still looking for it. The name refers to the Wagon Wheel advance of the Wisconsinan ice sheet some 17,000 years ago. The Wagon Wheel advance is largely responsible for the notches on the Devil's Path, Deep Notch and the Westkill Valley, and Grand Gorge.
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