Off Trail Fatal on Kinsman

[skiguy]

As much as this audience revers Joe Dodge, the helmet you are referencing was a Joe Brown you are referencing was a Joe Brown, That and the Bell Topex were the choices back then. And you are right no one wore then.

Helmets can protect you from things falling on your head or you falling on your head. Climbing helmets are more designed for the former but the use case discussed here seems to be the latter.

An appropriate quote from Tom Patey (you who profess to have been climbers 50 years ago should know who that is):
"a helmet is of particular benefit to the falling climber if the fall is a long one. In these cases, if the climber lands the right way, he will be completely telescoped into a small globular mass inside the helmet which can be easily stowed inside a rucksack by the mountain rescue team.."

Thank you for the correction. Great read here if you haven’t already. http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12197351700/One-Mans-Mountains

 

[NHChris]

Bicycle and climbing helmets are rather primitive in that most use a hard shell and strap suspension system.

Some ski helmets and all motorcycle helmets forgo strap suspension and enclose your skull in a layer of foam, and that is where the aging failure occurs.

Over time the foam drys out and can no longer provide the progressive compression required to absorb an impact. On a ten year old motorcycle helmet the hard outer shell is fine but the inner foam layer can’t be trusted.

Newer bicycle and ski helmets are rated MIPS 3. That’s multi-directional impact protection system and is probably a good reason to replace that old bike helmet with the latest greatest.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

As much as this audience revers Joe Dodge, the helmet you are referencing was a Joe Brown you are referencing was a Joe Brown, That and the Bell Topex were the choices back then. And you are right no one wore then.

Helmets can protect you from things falling on your head or you falling on your head. Climbing helmets are more designed for the former but the use case discussed here seems to be the latter.

An appropriate quote from Tom Patey (you who profess to have been climbers 50 years ago should know who that is):
"a helmet is of particular benefit to the falling climber if the fall is a long one. In these cases, if the climber lands the right way, he will be completely telescoped into a small globular mass inside the helmet which can be easily stowed inside a rucksack by the mountain rescue team.."

Tom Patey wrote about an attempt of the Eiger North Face (“of course”) with Don Whillans when Tom came across a boot frozen into the ice. When Tom yelled down to Don about his find, Whillans yelled back up “check to see if there is a foot in it!”). Recall the recent thread about the finding of Sandy Irving’s booted foot that had melted out of the upper Rongbuk Glacier on Everest. Ditto about a decade ago when Reinhold Messner’s brother Gunther’s booted foot melted out of glacier ice at the base of the Rupal Flank on Nanga Parbat.

 

[helmethiker]

Old bike helmets (25 years?) had foam liners. There was a short period of time when you could buy bike helmets that were foam with no hard shell. And for some age groups in some locations helmets are required by law for bicyclists, which is an outdoor activity.

I forget if I posted this on vftt, but I use a helmet for my non-winter dry weather hiking (which is almost all my hiking), because my fall rate is ridiculous, and I do not see a plan to make it better. I started using the helmet about 5 years ago after a fall while in principle just standing looking at the view.

I started with poles about 2 years ago, and I do not like how they get caught in the bushes around the trails, nor how they get in the way on steep descents, nor how they have taken over my former autonomous balance system, and the wrist grip makes me nervous about breaking my arm if I fall "wrong". But since they have taken over my rough terrain autonomous balance system, I do not have a plan for not using them. Yes poles were on a different vftt thread that did not start with poles.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

…… and the wrist grip makes me nervous about breaking my arm if I fall "wrong". But since they have taken over my rough terrain autonomous balance system, I do not have a plan for not using them. Yes poles were on a different vftt thread that did not start with poles.

I quit using the wrist loops on ski poles and trekking poles decades ago for that very reason, with a dislocated shoulder being my largest concern.

I think that most b/c ski instructors insist that their clients not use wrist loops on descent. Wrist loops definitely help add power for ascending. Modern b/c ski poles have grippy ridges nearly the entire length of the shaft that can be more readily gripped at the most appropriate length, especially for ascending. Check out more recent b/c ski YouTube videos or a Warren Miller ski film.

When I stopped using the wrist loops for lift-served skiing, I was at first worried that climbing back up to recover a dropped pole would be a PITA, but quickly discovered that I rarely dropped them, maybe once per season.

 

[skiguy]

I quit using the wrist loops on ski poles and trekking poles decades ago for that very reason, with a dislocated shoulder being my largest concern.

I think that most b/c ski instructors insist that their clients not use wrist loops on descent. Wrist loops definitely help add power for ascending. Modern b/c ski poles have grippy ridges nearly the entire length of the shaft that can be more readily gripped at the most appropriate length, especially for ascending. Check out more recent b/c ski YouTube videos or a Warren Miller ski film.

When I stopped using the wrist loops for lift-served skiing, I was at first worried that climbing back up to recover a dropped pole would be a PITA, but quickly discovered that I rarely dropped them, maybe once per season.

 

[DayTrip]

I quit using the wrist loops on ski poles and trekking poles decades ago for that very reason, with a dislocated shoulder being my largest concern.

Me too....after dislocating my shoulder on a fall on Cannon Mt where my arm got pinned behind me. Your concern is valid.

Only time I use the straps now is significant river crossings so I don't drop and lose a pole.

 

[KRooney]

I like the added leverage that straps give you.

 

[akafuzzjones]

Old bike helmets (25 years?) had foam liners. There was a short period of time when you could buy bike helmets that were foam with no hard shell. And for some age groups in some locations helmets are required by law for bicyclists, which is an outdoor activity.

I forget if I posted this on vftt, but I use a helmet for my non-winter dry weather hiking (which is almost all my hiking), because my fall rate is ridiculous, and I do not see a plan to make it better. I started using the helmet about 5 years ago after a fall while in principle just standing looking at the view.

I started with poles about 2 years ago, and I do not like how they get caught in the bushes around the trails, nor how they get in the way on steep descents, nor how they have taken over my former autonomous balance system, and the wrist grip makes me nervous about breaking my arm if I fall "wrong". But since they have taken over my rough terrain autonomous balance system, I do not have a plan for not using them. Yes poles were on a different vftt thread that did not start with poles.

Welcome helmethiker.

I’ve been wearing a helmet non-stop year long since sustaining a pretty serious head injury a few years back while hiking a summer-like Great Range Traverse in the Adirondacks. Fell. Hit my head. Knocked myself unconscious. Still have memory loss about the event. Took a few months of occupational therapy for vestibular issues to regain balance, and still have hearing loss in left ear and never-ending ringing (hit right behind left ear).

Figure if one fall can **** things up like that I don’t want to suffer another one. Felt like an idiot at first but rather feel dumb than be dumb. Lots of questions. Almost all sincere. Only one time (in Scotland) has anyone ever said anything derogatory about it. Lots is summit selfies now with the helmet. It’s become such an accepted part of my attire people ask where it is if I post pictures while I have it off.

I’ve done a lot of research and have tried all sorts of different styles. Right now I have a three season and a winter model. The summer one is a Black Diamond climbing helmet (Vapor I think) while I just replaced the winter one - both are winter mountaineering helmets (ski and climb combo). The one I’d been using for a few years was the Sweet Protection Ascender MIPS but just replaced it with a Smith Summit MIPS. I changed for a more comfortable fit. Both the BD and the SP are pretty banged up. Some of the dings are winter related - popping up to soon after crawling under a few blow downs.

But as other have said this tragedy was likely the result of a slip due to traction issues, but I still like the added protection of the helmet. My initial injury happened after a fall in a flat section of trail that I’d done several times before.

 

[NHChris]

Like Mike Tyson sagely observed: “Everybody’s got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

Accidents provide us that punch.

Glad you recovered and are still out there. Wear that lid proudly!

PS. When we did the Knife Edge in Winter we all wore helmets.

 

[helmethiker]

This is b.s. meant to sell more helmets.

https://helmets.org/replace.htm

Everything we use has a finite life. It may not be easy to know. The aviation industry mandates part replacement on a time and use schedule. Car racing safety equipment like harnesses and helmets have date codes for this reason. I believe the helmets are date of manufacture, and the harness have both manufacture and expiration dates, but I do not remember, and I do not actually own a race car to check a modern harness.

One day I was commuting to work on my bicycle, off the saddle going up a short hill. I heard a truck coming up behind me. BANG! my left foot goes to the ground. I twist myself hard right and the handlebars hard left to fall to the right, and I stop upright as the truck passes me. The left Mavic 601 crank arm pedal eye had split*. A conversation with a shop guy suggested that all aluminum cranks, seatposts, handlebars and stems should be replaced every 10k miles to prevent this type of failure. If you look you can find a lot of pictures of broken cranks. I posted this failure on icebike. One guy said he did not ride hard enough to have such a failure, and 3 or 4 weeks later reported that he just had such a failure.

My point? If there is a recommended schedule for replacement, following it is probably a good idea. If you have a mechanism for determining part deterioration and follow that properly, then do that instead, but most of us do not have easy access to such things.

*I believe that is my only crank arm failure, but I have broken something like 6 crank spindles, all left side. I do not know why me and not my brother who was stronger (or at least faster) than me. I was pretty strong but nowhere near the power of the fast guys, and the latest one 2 years ago was when my peak power was probably 300 watts. Now maybe 150. 16 years ago it was 550.

 

[TEO]

Bicycle and climbing helmets are rather primitive in that most use a hard shell and strap suspension system.

Some ski helmets and all motorcycle helmets forgo strap suspension and enclose your skull in a layer of foam, and that is where the aging failure occurs.

Over time the foam drys out and can no longer provide the progressive compression required to absorb an impact. On a ten year old motorcycle helmet the hard outer shell is fine but the inner foam layer can’t be trusted.

Newer bicycle and ski helmets are rated MIPS 3. That’s multi-directional impact protection system and is probably a good reason to replace that old bike helmet with the latest greatest.

Huh?! What are you using for a bicycle helmet? An ANSI/Snell/CPSC approved helmet most definitely does NOT use a "hard shell and strap suspension system." The primary protection is from the use of an expanded polystyrene (EPS) foam liner, just like with ski helmets, and I assume motorcycle helmets. The primary protective role of the thin microshell on a bicycle helmet, is to allow the helmet to slide on impact.

EPS foam does NOT "dry out." On the contrary, according to a peer-reviewed study in the Journal of Biomechanical Engineering, "Based on these data, the impact attenuation properties of EPS foam in field-used bicycle helmets do not degrade with the age." (Source.) Additionally, "The Snell Memorial Foundation has tested motorcycle helmets held in storage for more than 20 years and found that they still meet the original standard." (Source.)

Regarding MIPS, helmets.org's recommendation is:

We do not see compelling evidence that you should trade in your current helmet on a MIPS model unless having the Latest Thing is important to you. Based on Snell's research we think the jury is still out on MIPS. There are alternative rotational energy management systems in the market. We think your first concern should be to wear a helmet with a round, smooth exterior that will not snag as you slide on the pavement.

 

[DayTrip]

EPS foam does NOT "dry out."

I had what I believe was a Black Diamond Half Dome helmet and the product description on the website I bought it only states that it uses "co-molded foam" so I'm not sure what its attributes should have. On my particular helmet, the foam became somewhat brittle (along the lines of the type of foam you'd see in a TV box on the corners). More importantly, however, was it was glued to the actual plastic (polycarbonate) shell and that adhesive failed and the dried foam simply fell off the helmet in many places when I picked it up out of the tote. I had it stored in a cool, dark place (a sealed plastic tote in my basement) and this occurred after about 5-6 years I believe.

This was their entry level, most inexpensive model so I assume that affected the quality of the materials chosen.

EDIT: I went to the Black Diamond website and they indicate "EPS impact foam". I assume mine had the same type of foam but I don't know that for sure.