bcskier
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Overcrowding on the AT (was: BSP in fight with ATC)
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peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
The first part of the article is good on the potential for overuse but once they get into the SJ incident they go off track omitting a lot of details
bcskier
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What details are omitted? Do tell.
I am concerned with the effect of the movie on usage, some of the stats in the article are troubling. Doubling or tripling the # of thru hikers would certainly change BSP dramatically. I love the park and selfishly would not the main purpose of the park to be servicing the atc. I can't imagine Redford and Nolte- 30 years too old for the parts. I also can not imagine moving the terminus of the AT, it is the fitting end for all who have endured and accomplished this feat. I hope the park and atc can work out some reasonable solution. Any way a solution could be created that may help Millinocket at the same time would be helpful. My 2 cents- Cant support the SJ stuff, to me it contradicts the essence of hiking, wilderness, and the beauty of nature, even though it is a remarkable physical accomplishment, but I do not want more rules & regs, complicated issue.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Feel free to peruse the hundreds of posts on the SJ incident.
As far as I am aware of, ATC is not fighting with Baxter, they have acknowledged that the AT is a "guest" of the park and are working with the park and MATC to come up with solutions. Some folks are not aware that the PCT instituted mandatory reservations this year. If a PCT thru hiker doesn't have a registration they don't get on the John Muir trail under the thru hiker exemption which knocks a three week chunk out of their thru hike. One of the big issues at Baxter is that they do not differentiate between thru hikers, section hikers, hikers of the 100 mile wilderness and overnight hikers at Abol Bridge. thus the majority of those trying to enter the park to compete for the 12 daily slots for those without reservations at the Birches are not necessarily thru hikers. (Please note those with reservations just walk right in with no restrictions). I have met folks who decided they didn't need to get reservations and have walked in the park under the thru hiker exemption. If the AT had mandatory registration of thru hikers (pretty easily done by having a few designated check in points along the trail like Springer, Harpers Ferry, Bear Mountain State Park, Pinkham) then the 12 daily Birches slots are going to go a lot further. For those doing a section or hiking the 100 mile wilderness, they either stop at Abol Bridge or make reservations. That is what I did when I sectioned the AT and I have met others who have done the same. There are a couple of other viable options but most folks would rather b*tch and moan then look at it productively. BSP, ATC and MATC have already met and expect they will continue to meet an come up with a solution for next year.
Personally I feel at least a some of the backlash against Baxter is by a fairly steadfast group who oppose how BSP is managed. On the other hand, the folks who have figured out how to follow the rules dont say a lot they just keep going to Baxter and enjoy that the bad reputation keeps more folks away. Funny, I rarely see the Baxter Bash folks making many complaints
As far as I am aware of, ATC is not fighting with Baxter, they have acknowledged that the AT is a "guest" of the park and are working with the park and MATC to come up with solutions. Some folks are not aware that the PCT instituted mandatory reservations this year. If a PCT thru hiker doesn't have a registration they don't get on the John Muir trail under the thru hiker exemption which knocks a three week chunk out of their thru hike. One of the big issues at Baxter is that they do not differentiate between thru hikers, section hikers, hikers of the 100 mile wilderness and overnight hikers at Abol Bridge. thus the majority of those trying to enter the park to compete for the 12 daily slots for those without reservations at the Birches are not necessarily thru hikers. (Please note those with reservations just walk right in with no restrictions). I have met folks who decided they didn't need to get reservations and have walked in the park under the thru hiker exemption. If the AT had mandatory registration of thru hikers (pretty easily done by having a few designated check in points along the trail like Springer, Harpers Ferry, Bear Mountain State Park, Pinkham) then the 12 daily Birches slots are going to go a lot further. For those doing a section or hiking the 100 mile wilderness, they either stop at Abol Bridge or make reservations. That is what I did when I sectioned the AT and I have met others who have done the same. There are a couple of other viable options but most folks would rather b*tch and moan then look at it productively. BSP, ATC and MATC have already met and expect they will continue to meet an come up with a solution for next year.
Personally I feel at least a some of the backlash against Baxter is by a fairly steadfast group who oppose how BSP is managed. On the other hand, the folks who have figured out how to follow the rules dont say a lot they just keep going to Baxter and enjoy that the bad reputation keeps more folks away. Funny, I rarely see the Baxter Bash folks making many complaints
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egilbe
Member
Baxter is one of my favorite spots, just because of the way its managed. I do hope they kick the AT out of the park. Too much traffic at the Summit as it is.
Snowflea
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It seems to be "the thing" with major media outlets these days to write about the challenges faced by the trail. Another one: http://www.nbcwashington.com/entert...ppalachian-Trail-Drugs-Alcohol-323362181.html
Couple thoughts:
When you're a guest in someone's "home" -- in this particular case BSP -- you follow the rules of the homeowners, even if you think they are stupid and/or overreaching. Otherwise you should go elsewhere. To question and challenge the rules of your host is disrespectful and *******. Better to humbly apologize for alleged transgressions than than to "lawyer up." My opinion.
Thinking that BSP doesn't care about bad PR. It's not as if they need to solicit customers. How refreshing in this day and age to take a stand on a principle w/o regard for the howling masses(?). I say good for them!
It's puzzling why the ATC is pushing 'A Walk In The Woods.' Have rec'd a few emails from them advertising the film and describing how they are "dealing with" the anticipated numbers next spring.
The AT is not the only game (haha--a pun) in town. Although w/perhaps less cachet, there are many, many other trails out there to hike that don't see anywhere near the numbers of the AT or PCT, trails where the local shopkeepers, campground hosts, motel owners, etc., are thrilled to see people hiking their local trail, who welcome hikers w/open arms, who are not burned out by the sheer numbers as well as the moronic actions by a minority who reflect negatively on the whole. Trails like the Tuscarora, Ouachita, Cohos, and Colorado, all of which I have firsthand experience in witnessing a totally different vibe in their respective trail towns.
I do love the AT -- still the single best "thing" I ever did! -- but I'm glad to have thru-hiked it in the mid 90s instead of today. It seems the thru-hike experience is very different now...
Couple thoughts:
When you're a guest in someone's "home" -- in this particular case BSP -- you follow the rules of the homeowners, even if you think they are stupid and/or overreaching. Otherwise you should go elsewhere. To question and challenge the rules of your host is disrespectful and *******. Better to humbly apologize for alleged transgressions than than to "lawyer up." My opinion.
Thinking that BSP doesn't care about bad PR. It's not as if they need to solicit customers. How refreshing in this day and age to take a stand on a principle w/o regard for the howling masses(?). I say good for them!
It's puzzling why the ATC is pushing 'A Walk In The Woods.' Have rec'd a few emails from them advertising the film and describing how they are "dealing with" the anticipated numbers next spring.
The AT is not the only game (haha--a pun) in town. Although w/perhaps less cachet, there are many, many other trails out there to hike that don't see anywhere near the numbers of the AT or PCT, trails where the local shopkeepers, campground hosts, motel owners, etc., are thrilled to see people hiking their local trail, who welcome hikers w/open arms, who are not burned out by the sheer numbers as well as the moronic actions by a minority who reflect negatively on the whole. Trails like the Tuscarora, Ouachita, Cohos, and Colorado, all of which I have firsthand experience in witnessing a totally different vibe in their respective trail towns.
I do love the AT -- still the single best "thing" I ever did! -- but I'm glad to have thru-hiked it in the mid 90s instead of today. It seems the thru-hike experience is very different now...
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Everybody forgets the CDT. One of the guys on crew with us said that one good horse group per year was enough to keep the trail open, and we were still seeing it grow over. Gov. Martinez, in her order to start work on the Rio Grande trail on state lands, cited the PCT and AT as great examples...and never mentioned the existing NST that actually goes through NM!
Stan
Well-known member
Pardon my rant:
Baxter Park was a GIFT to the people of Maine. It came with stipulations, like it or not. It operates without taxpayer support. No one is sentenced to go there so, if you don't like the rules, Keep Out. Personally, I think park personnel do a great job and have high admiration, respect and a tad of envy for where they work.
I sometimes wonder about the maturity and self reliance of those who bash the place and its managers. They sound like spoiled brats, with no understanding of its purpose and place in our lives and a lack of sufficient self discipline to be entrusted with responsibilities of any kind.
Here is a letter outlining some of the issues with so-called through hikers and some of the things the park has done to accommodate them: http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/pdf/meetingAuthority/Dec162014/AT%20Ron%20Tipton%20Wendy%20Janssen%20letter%2011%2019%202014%20scanned.pdf
The very title of this thread misleading. Both the Park and ATC have competent and collegial leaders who will work constructively to solve the problem. ATC respects that much of the trail impacts lands it neither owns nor controls and seeks good relationships, not fights. Most adults have left the fights behind at some elementary school playground ... most, not all certainly.
Baxter Park was a GIFT to the people of Maine. It came with stipulations, like it or not. It operates without taxpayer support. No one is sentenced to go there so, if you don't like the rules, Keep Out. Personally, I think park personnel do a great job and have high admiration, respect and a tad of envy for where they work.
I sometimes wonder about the maturity and self reliance of those who bash the place and its managers. They sound like spoiled brats, with no understanding of its purpose and place in our lives and a lack of sufficient self discipline to be entrusted with responsibilities of any kind.
Here is a letter outlining some of the issues with so-called through hikers and some of the things the park has done to accommodate them: http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/pdf/meetingAuthority/Dec162014/AT%20Ron%20Tipton%20Wendy%20Janssen%20letter%2011%2019%202014%20scanned.pdf
The very title of this thread misleading. Both the Park and ATC have competent and collegial leaders who will work constructively to solve the problem. ATC respects that much of the trail impacts lands it neither owns nor controls and seeks good relationships, not fights. Most adults have left the fights behind at some elementary school playground ... most, not all certainly.
Guthook
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I'm going to copy a quote here from the other thread about this:
I heard about the special permit from someone who works at ATC, but I haven't seen a single reference to it on any news article. Seems to me that most of the arguments against BSP wouldn't have a leg to stand on if that info was more widespread. Does anyone have a link to either a news article that mentions the permit, or at least to some official mention of it?
Judging by some of the comments on Facebook, this whole issue has brought out the worst in the AT community, which is saying a lot. On the plus side, it's finally gotten me to take a real break from FB and I'm happy to see that there's still sensible talk here at VFTT. Peakbagger, I agree 100% with you on this:
I just hope the loud minority doesn't convince anyone that they're the majority.
I heard about the special permit from someone who works at ATC, but I haven't seen a single reference to it on any news article. Seems to me that most of the arguments against BSP wouldn't have a leg to stand on if that info was more widespread. Does anyone have a link to either a news article that mentions the permit, or at least to some official mention of it?
Judging by some of the comments on Facebook, this whole issue has brought out the worst in the AT community, which is saying a lot. On the plus side, it's finally gotten me to take a real break from FB and I'm happy to see that there's still sensible talk here at VFTT. Peakbagger, I agree 100% with you on this:
Personally I feel at least a some of the backlash against Baxter is by a fairly steadfast group who oppose how BSP is managed. On the other hand, the folks who have figured out how to follow the rules dont say a lot they just keep going to Baxter and enjoy that the bad reputation keeps more folks away. Funny, I rarely see the Baxter Bash folks making many complaints
I just hope the loud minority doesn't convince anyone that they're the majority.
RollingRock
Active member
Very true. Having been a section hiker and another time a 100 mile wilderness hiker, I fall under these categories. I made a point not to take those 12 slots at the Birches since I felt they belonged to the thru-hikers. I had made reservations in advance to stay in one of the lean-to's when I got to Baxter.
I'm sure BSP and ATC will work something out. A permit system at Abol Bridge on the AT [northbounders] or at Katahdin Stream [southbounders] would help obtain usage statistics and make BSP feel they have greater control. For curbing enthusiasm after hiking the AT end-to-end on top of Mt. Katahdin by drinking champagne [heck I even did it], I think is bit extreme for BSP to try to do...in my view, all those folks deserve to celebrate and in most cases don't do it in the manner of Scott Jurek.
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SherpaWill
Member
Good article from Outside...
I've noticed in recent years an increase in hikers that could care less about the impact they're having.
http://www.outsideonline.com/201185...k&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost
I've noticed in recent years an increase in hikers that could care less about the impact they're having.
http://www.outsideonline.com/201185...k&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I proposed my solution on Whiteblaze that fits within park regulations http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/112872-Potential-Solutions-to-the-BSP-issues.
I have no doubt the recent spurt of publicity is driven by the Walk in the Woods movie that is coming out. Redford and Nolte adds public interest to the trail and the media is desperate to generate controversy to get more eyeballs.
ATC is in a tough spot, they didn't deal at all with the bubble caused by the book that unfortunately aligned with the year 2000 until after the fact. The book unfortunately made light of high impact camping ( Katz pitching spare gear and food in the woods) and to some this established that this was normal and somewhat acceptable resulting in ridgerunners having to haul out lots of abandoned gear, food and trash. It also in general reinforced that anyone could just show up with some gear and walk to Maine. This time the ATC had plenty of warning and decided that they would join the movement and try to direct it.
The other unmentioned driver is that ATC did a long range study about 10 to 15 years ago and decided that the organization had to change and grow significantly. Previously ATC was the Appalachian Trail Conference and it basically was the coordinating council of the maintaining clubs. It had been in existence from the start of the trail but it stuck to the big picture while leaving the maintaining clubs to actually do the work on the trails. Like any non profit it grew substantially to deal with the effort to purchase the remaining unprotected corridor. The conference also had no choice to grow larger, once the NPS took over the AT, they had to have the resources to implement NP directives. Despite the size and scope of the trail, the NPS puts few if any resources into it, one full time law enforcement officer and a few administrative folks). Compared to other far smaller NPS properties, the resources dedicated to the AT is minimal. After the study was completed, the decision was made to rebrand itself into "the organization in charge of the AT" taking much control from the maintaining clubs (many of which are struggling to keep volunteers on the ground trying to deal with the overuse). Thus the Appalachian Trail Conservancy was created (note the initials didn't change so most folks didn't realize the shift). The new entity is far more slick and glossy with a goal to grow substantially and affiliating with the movie is going to bring in revenue and members which is the goal of any non profit.
One thing you are not going to see is open debate of the discussions between BSP, MATC and the ATC. This is going to be done behind closed doors and then eventually decisions will be propagated through the various boards and then a unified policy will be announced.
I have no doubt the recent spurt of publicity is driven by the Walk in the Woods movie that is coming out. Redford and Nolte adds public interest to the trail and the media is desperate to generate controversy to get more eyeballs.
ATC is in a tough spot, they didn't deal at all with the bubble caused by the book that unfortunately aligned with the year 2000 until after the fact. The book unfortunately made light of high impact camping ( Katz pitching spare gear and food in the woods) and to some this established that this was normal and somewhat acceptable resulting in ridgerunners having to haul out lots of abandoned gear, food and trash. It also in general reinforced that anyone could just show up with some gear and walk to Maine. This time the ATC had plenty of warning and decided that they would join the movement and try to direct it.
The other unmentioned driver is that ATC did a long range study about 10 to 15 years ago and decided that the organization had to change and grow significantly. Previously ATC was the Appalachian Trail Conference and it basically was the coordinating council of the maintaining clubs. It had been in existence from the start of the trail but it stuck to the big picture while leaving the maintaining clubs to actually do the work on the trails. Like any non profit it grew substantially to deal with the effort to purchase the remaining unprotected corridor. The conference also had no choice to grow larger, once the NPS took over the AT, they had to have the resources to implement NP directives. Despite the size and scope of the trail, the NPS puts few if any resources into it, one full time law enforcement officer and a few administrative folks). Compared to other far smaller NPS properties, the resources dedicated to the AT is minimal. After the study was completed, the decision was made to rebrand itself into "the organization in charge of the AT" taking much control from the maintaining clubs (many of which are struggling to keep volunteers on the ground trying to deal with the overuse). Thus the Appalachian Trail Conservancy was created (note the initials didn't change so most folks didn't realize the shift). The new entity is far more slick and glossy with a goal to grow substantially and affiliating with the movie is going to bring in revenue and members which is the goal of any non profit.
One thing you are not going to see is open debate of the discussions between BSP, MATC and the ATC. This is going to be done behind closed doors and then eventually decisions will be propagated through the various boards and then a unified policy will be announced.
Raven
Well-known member
Thanks for posting and thanks to Stan for the letter posted.
After reading the letter from BSP posted by Stan as well as this article, and all the others....I have to agree. These are not in line with my memories of the AT from 15 years ago either. Don't get me wrong, people had their fun outside of hiking on the AT, but I never felt it came from a disrespectful place. I also hiked south at the tail end of the Sobos and finished very late (Feb) , so really avoided crowds (this was all by design)....I've mentioned on here before that my partner and I logged over 500 miles without sharing a night with another hiker in a shelter, mostly through Virginia in late fall. We saw lots of day hikers, hunters, and some tenters but had every shelter to ourselves for the 500 miles just before hitting Smoky Mountain NP. Not even another SoBo, although some were clearly ahead and some behind us likely. I didn't get a sense for "the wave" then and now it sounds like it has blown up quite a bit.
Two comments from the article: obtaining fake service dog papers to get into BSP!? I'm not sure which angle to take on that one. That's bottom of the barrel.
The other interesting thing: the article mentioned that in 2014 more than 830 people completed the trail yet more than 2,000 long distance hikers registered in BSP that same year. A lot of hikers are flip-flopping to get into Baxter early and through northern New England before winter weather. These numbers suggest to me, among other factors, that there may be a lot AT thru hikers not going back to complete those other sections after Katahdin and likely joining large groups to teleport north to the end. The sizes of the groups they are mentioning are really disturbing.
I still imagine the trouble is coming from a minority of thru-hikers, but it doesn't sound small.
Baxter needs to remain pristine. Thru-hiking the AT is literally a life-changing experience for many people. I would hate to see the two no longer linked. My memories of the AT are nothing like what I have been reading about and like Stinkyfeet, it's the single greatest "thing" I have ever done. It makes me sad to read about what it has become in some ways.
Stan
Well-known member
For those who don't know peakbagger personally, I'd like to add that he's a regular visitor to Baxter, and "opening day", and is quite familiar with the Park, staff (and vise versa) and its operations. He's done extensive trail work with MATC and section hiked most, if not all, the AT. He's also a good engineer with a very practical and sensible approach to things. I hope the Park, MATC and ATC take seriously his perspectives on the AT hiker problem and whatever mix of solutions are developed.
I rather doubt the terminus of the AT will change but do expect it to be managed even more intensively than presently. The strategic needs are many and there is no one magic bullet nor will the solutions solve everything perfectly. That's life and it goes on that way.
Enjoyed peakbagger's Whiteblaze thread and the constructive suggestion. Can't help being amused by the fact the the Great Spirit (as described by one of the posters) has endowed us with so much of an inheritance but no responsibility for taking care of it. Picture Pamola doubled over but can't quite tell whether it is in laughter or pain.
I rather doubt the terminus of the AT will change but do expect it to be managed even more intensively than presently. The strategic needs are many and there is no one magic bullet nor will the solutions solve everything perfectly. That's life and it goes on that way.
Enjoyed peakbagger's Whiteblaze thread and the constructive suggestion. Can't help being amused by the fact the the Great Spirit (as described by one of the posters) has endowed us with so much of an inheritance but no responsibility for taking care of it. Picture Pamola doubled over but can't quite tell whether it is in laughter or pain.
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