Pace, Intervals And Rest

[DayTrip]

You could just hike 40% longer, leave the book home, and get more exercise I wouldn't recommend sitting for long periods of time in winter either.

Tim

That is probably the number one thing I hate most about Winter hiking. You really can't stop to enjoy the views like you can in the warmer months. Even with warm clothing I find my hamstrings get stiff fast and my knees ache if I stop too long. Have to keep moving along on most days.

 

[iAmKrzys]

The other more vague question I have is how do you set a "proper" pace? In Mountaineering:Freedom Of The Hills it is suggested that you should walk at a pace such that you can maintain a conversation and keep that pace (I hike alone so that isn't really a useful tip unless I want to seriously disturb passing hikers).

I would interpret this suggestion as follows - if I hike fast enough to the point that I need to breath much faster than usual and it would interfer with speaking easily then I am hiking too fast.

I have a bad habit of moving forward to quickly, stopping, rushing forward, stopping rather than regulating my pace to a steady rate that allows me to continue walking. The rush/stop method makes it harder to regulate sweating too for layer management. I don't care in the Summer but it can be problematic in Winter.

When reading this story http://nhpr.org/post/anatomy-search-when-hiker-called-help-nh-rescuers-braved-monstrous-storm (posted on another thread) the following paragraph caught my attention:

"But while the team wanted to get there as quickly as possible, going too fast would be dangerous given the extreme cold: the rescuers couldn’t afford to start sweating and get wet."

I also worry about setting myself for hypothermia in Winter should I sweat too much and then suddenly get immobilized like in a fall. I usually have no problem handling sweating when average grade is below 10%, however, I pretty much always sweat a lot if average grade is over 15%. I have been thinking what I should do about it:

1. go much slower? Not always realistic as I usually want to arrive to my destination by certain time
2. get clothing that dries up faster (maybe try Polartec Alpha?)
3. improve my layering? I think I am mismanaging this quite a bit as I usually don't like feeling too cold, and sometimes I don't take off a layer until it is too late
4. lower my pack weight? I guess I can do better with enough money, but this idea may not be so easy to sell at home!

Actual speed over the ground varies depending on incline and footing.

Actually, I have been thinking recently about analyzing my GPS traces to visualize how my hiking speed depends on grade but I don't know if there are any ready tools to do that and writing custom code to accomplish this will require some work.

 

[jfb]

I also worry about setting myself for hypothermia in Winter should I sweat too much and then suddenly get immobilized like in a fall. I usually have no problem handling sweating when average grade is below 10%, however, I pretty much always sweat a lot if average grade is over 15%. I have been thinking what I should do about it:

1. go much slower? Not always realistic as I usually want to arrive to my destination by certain time
2. get clothing that dries up faster (maybe try Polartec Alpha?)
3. improve my layering? I think I am mismanaging this quite a bit as I usually don't like feeling too cold, and sometimes I don't take off a layer until it is too late
4. lower my pack weight? I guess I can do better with enough money, but this idea may not be so easy to sell at home!

Improving your layering is probably the best place to start. First, you need to carry layers of different thickness. Second, you need to anticipate which combination of layers will be just right for the near future and change as necessary before you start sweating, while still wearing enough to keep warm.

 

[egilbe]

I'll unzip stuff before I start taking layers off. I dont like to sweat, but try to wear layers that can be damp and dry out fairly quickly. Its something you can get a feel for while you're hiking.

 

[DayTrip]

I'll unzip stuff before I start taking layers off. I dont like to sweat, but try to wear layers that can be damp and dry out fairly quickly. Its something you can get a feel for while you're hiking.

I do the same. No matter how slow I go on steeper terrain I am going to sweat, especially the mid and lower back where the pack rides. I usually start in my hard shell (like the waterproofness in snow covered trees, etc - I know I'm in the minority on this) and a thin base layer with hat and gloves. I add and remove hat, add and remove hood, zip and unzip pit vents and front of jacket to regulate heat. When everything is on and zipped 100% and I remain cold I stop and add a layer. I also keep one of those small fast drying towels in my layer bag that I will wipe my head, under my base layer, etc when I stop to remove the bulk of the sweat before it creates a chilling issue. Generally I will strip the intermediate and wet layer I used when ascending and switch into a dry layer higher up/at treeline so I am as dry as possible. No matter how slow I walk I will sweat. I guess you need to be in very good shape to avoid sweating in the steep climbs because your body is not working as hard as my fat carcass does. I'm a long way from that point. As someone pointed out to me before in a layering post a few years back you really need to gain a comfort level with being a bit cold while walking to minimize the sweat issue.

My big mistake is always wearing the added layers from high up back down too far, getting overly sweaty on the way out because I am too lazy to stop and take off. I'd much rather feel too warm than cold but this is clearly a bad habit I need to break.

 

[jfb]

I do the same. No matter how slow I go on steeper terrain I am going to sweat, especially the mid and lower back where the pack rides. I usually start in my hard shell (like the waterproofness in snow covered trees, etc - I know I'm in the minority on this) and a thin base layer with hat and gloves. I add and remove hat, add and remove hood, zip and unzip pit vents and front of jacket to regulate heat. When everything is on and zipped 100% and I remain cold I stop and add a layer. I also keep one of those small fast drying towels in my layer bag that I will wipe my head, under my base layer, etc when I stop to remove the bulk of the sweat before it creates a chilling issue. Generally I will strip the intermediate and wet layer I used when ascending and switch into a dry layer higher up/at treeline so I am as dry as possible. No matter how slow I walk I will sweat. I guess you need to be in very good shape to avoid sweating in the steep climbs because your body is not working as hard as my fat carcass does. I'm a long way from that point. As someone pointed out to me before in a layering post a few years back you really need to gain a comfort level with being a bit cold while walking to minimize the sweat issue.

My big mistake is always wearing the added layers from high up back down too far, getting overly sweaty on the way out because I am too lazy to stop and take off. I'd much rather feel too warm than cold but this is clearly a bad habit I need to break.

That's what happens when you hike in a hardshell.

 

[hikerbrian]

I do the same. No matter how slow I go on steeper terrain I am going to sweat, especially the mid and lower back where the pack rides. I usually start in my hard shell (like the waterproofness in snow covered trees, etc - I know I'm in the minority on this) and a thin base layer with hat and gloves. I add and remove hat, add and remove hood, zip and unzip pit vents and front of jacket to regulate heat. When everything is on and zipped 100% and I remain cold I stop and add a layer. I also keep one of those small fast drying towels in my layer bag that I will wipe my head, under my base layer, etc when I stop to remove the bulk of the sweat before it creates a chilling issue. Generally I will strip the intermediate and wet layer I used when ascending and switch into a dry layer higher up/at treeline so I am as dry as possible. No matter how slow I walk I will sweat. I guess you need to be in very good shape to avoid sweating in the steep climbs because your body is not working as hard as my fat carcass does. I'm a long way from that point. As someone pointed out to me before in a layering post a few years back you really need to gain a comfort level with being a bit cold while walking to minimize the sweat issue.

My big mistake is always wearing the added layers from high up back down too far, getting overly sweaty on the way out because I am too lazy to stop and take off. I'd much rather feel too warm than cold but this is clearly a bad habit I need to break.

Meh. This may be shocking to some, but as far as I can tell, there is no perfect solution, even if you're disciplined, not lazy, fit, and have Really Expensive Stuff. The best you can do is keep optimizing until you find the least-bad option. Which still won't be perfect.

My point is, your clothing system sounds pretty good to me. You may be able to improve it by a small margin, but you've already figured out the major stuff.

I too sweat through whatever is separating my back from my pack. No matter what. My least-bad option is to try to minimize that sweating, minimize the thickness of the layer that's inevitably going to get wet, minimize the loss of insulation when said section of that layer is damp, and dry it out at every opportunity.

Come to think of it, I think I'm going to cut the back out of one of my old 200 weight fleeces and sew in the back of one of my old, threadbare long underwear tops. Keep my arms and chest warm, minimize the thickness of the sweaty section. I'm a g****mn genius. Calling the US patent office RIGHT NOW.

 

[egilbe]

Meh. This may be shocking to some, but as far as I can tell, there is no perfect solution, even if you're disciplined, not lazy, fit, and have Really Expensive Stuff. The best you can do is keep optimizing until you find the least-bad option. Which still won't be perfect.

My point is, your clothing system sounds pretty good to me. You may be able to improve it by a small margin, but you've already figured out the major stuff.

I too sweat through whatever is separating my back from my pack. No matter what. My least-bad option is to try to minimize that sweating, minimize the thickness of the layer that's inevitably going to get wet, minimize the loss of insulation when said section of that layer is damp, and dry it out at every opportunity.

Come to think of it, I think I'm going to cut the back out of one of my old 200 weight fleeces and sew in the back of one of my old, threadbare long underwear tops. Keep my arms and chest warm, minimize the thickness of the sweaty section. I'm a g****mn genius. Calling the US patent office RIGHT NOW.

Its already been done. There are a few mfg's who create hybrid clothing items like that.

 

[DayTrip]

That's what happens when you hike in a hardshell.

It's ten times worse for me in a soft shell. And I really have no issue with moisture in the hard shell when I regulate the layers and adjust as needed. It has worked for me so I've stayed with it even though it is not what most do (or advised me to do). I know regular fleece breathes better but I don't like the damp wet sensation you get in them brushing against snow covered branches, etc.

When I've gotten drenched it was clearly because I was overdressed and too lazy to stop and take the layers off. I'm not going to blame the system when my laziness was the factor.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

My sweat output laughs at your high-tech ultra breathable layering system.

Tim

 

[Stan]

I think many people layer up too much at the trailhead and fail to remove it soon enough. I like to start without the outer layers (usually goretex and fleece) and heat up with the energy generated by hiking. Though I do perspire the wicking layers I do have on wick some of it away. I then layer up as needed like when exposed to wind or weather, stopping for a while or otherwise not generating enough heat to keep warm. My base layers are long johns, a wool shirt and a vest.

Also, consider on the ride that there may also be enough heat and too many layers so you already start out a bit hot if not sweating.

 

[iAmKrzys]

I think many people layer up too much at the trailhead and fail to remove it soon enough.

I'm definitely guilty of this. Sometimes I find it hard to convince myself not to wear too many things when my hands are freezing when I'm getting my gear ready at the parking lot. I guess I really need to work on my layers management.

 

[jniehof]

Its already been done. There are a few mfg's who create hybrid clothing items like that.

From my closet: Warmfront, Marmot Variant Vest. Love 'em both.

 

[DayTrip]

I'm definitely guilty of this. Sometimes I find it hard to convince myself not to wear too many things when my hands are freezing when I'm getting my gear ready at the parking lot. I guess I really need to work on my layers management.

I always slowly back off on the heat when I'm getting close to trail head and do not wear a jacket or other layers, like the thick socks I'll hike in. Before I get out of car I put on nitrile gloves and put on a warm Winter coat to stay warm while I'm getting ready. Just before I head out I ditch the Winter jacket back in the car and go with my hard shell/base layer and start walking. I usually heat up quickly enough within 5 minutes and can start the process of zipping and unzipping, adding and removing hat, etc. There is nothing more annoying than stopping after just 10-15 minutes to screw around with layers. I like to leave trail head with a combo I know will work for a few hours without having to stop.

 

[egilbe]

Unfortunately, screwing around with layers is what you are supposed to be doing. Either that, or slow down so you arent over-heating, and if you are sweating, you are overheating.

 

[hikerbrian]

From my closet: Warmfront, Marmot Variant Vest. Love 'em both.

Nice, I like! The jacket version of the Variant is pretty close to what I've got in mind. Any others out there?

 

[DougPaul]

Unfortunately, screwing around with layers is what you are supposed to be doing. Either that, or slow down so you arent over-heating, and if you are sweating, you are overheating.

Correct.
Insulation should be treated as a dynamic object and increased or decreased as needed. If you are sweating and still wearing more than just your base layer, you are wearing too much. (Whether you want to start stripped down or strip down as you warm up is simply a detail of personal/group style.)

I have seen people with sweat dripping off their faces but still wearing their big down jackets (fully zipped up). It is about doing what is necessary to keep your body temp neutral, not the outside temp. FWIW, I have also helped to rescue such people...

Caveats, details, and suggestions:
* One can lose a significant amount of heat from one's legs, but leg insulation can be harder to adjust than upper body insulation--use side-zip wind pants and extra/emergency pants for ease of installation or removal. You can also increase your heat dissipation significantly by pulling long-john legs above your knees. (I can get an extra 10F of heat tolerance this way when wearing my standard winter outfit of wool pants over long johns.)
* You can lose a lot of heat from your head--a simple hat (such as a navy watch cap) can easily be moved between one's head and pocket for a significant amount of control.
* Some people who sweat profusely even when fully stripped down carry an extra baselayer top and change out of the wet one at the summit or when arriving at the campsite. (Best to change while still warm...)
* Increased breathability increases both heat and moisture loss. Heavy sweaters can often stay drier if they avoid low breathability layers (eg wind-block and shell layers) when conditions permit.
* The colder it is, the more important staying dry becomes...
* One's clothing will always get damp during use in cold weather--use moisture tolerant fabrics (eg wool, polyester, nylon). (One's body heat will drive skin moisture into one's clothing.)
* One can get away with a lot on day trips that one cannot on overnights or multi-day trips. Consider that a mishap can turn a planned daytrip into an overnight.
* Individuals vary widely in their amount of heat and sweat production. You have to learn how you respond by experience and the specific gear/amount of insulation that works well for someone else may or may not work well for you.

Doug
Who produces a good bit of heat when active and is a moderately heavy sweater, but certainly not as heavy as some.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I was taught to "hike cool below treeline and hike warm above treeline"

Heat management became much easier for me once I got comfortable with the idea of being very cold at the trailhead ["let's get going" cold] and cool-to-cold when hiking.

Being a forest tramper rather than a peak bagger helps too. I hike slow and I am always looking for a reason to stop or to hike even slower.

 

[DayTrip]

Either that, or slow down so you arent over-heating, and if you are sweating, you are overheating.

If this is the case I guess I'm going to have to stop hiking and take up statue impersonating. I get that you have to futz with the layers as you go but if you have to stop 10 minutes into a hike to get into your pack to take off and put on stuff I would suggest you have made a bad judgement about your layering needs at the car. But some people like to start bundled up and cozy and then work backwards. Not my preference but to each his own. If you start with a good determination of the appropriate layers at the start, adjust your pace as you go, zip/unzip/hat on/hat off/etc you can go for quite awhile without the need to stop and get into the backpack.

 

[DougPaul]

I was taught to "hike cool below treeline and hike warm above treeline"

I was as well. (Way back in winter school...)

Below T-line where one is generally protected from the wind, it is generally easy to put more on if needed or warm up if chilled. Thus staying cool prevents sweating with a bit of margin.

Above T-line, one is often exposed to the wind and it can be hard to add insulation (loose gear can blow away...) or warm up if chilled. If it is windy, it is also easy to dump excess heat simply by lowering a jacket zipper.


In both cases the goals are staying warm enough to avoid the beginnings of hypothermia and cool enough to prevent sweating.

Doug