Pickett Mountain Mine in Maine

[NHClimber]

Except when it comes to oil...

Yup. Like Germany and their Russian gas.

 

[peakbagger]

There is plenty of lithium available in the world, its comes down to concentration, how easy it is to extract it and who owns it? China's approach is to subsidize (economics or ignore environmental impact) domestic production so they are the only supplier and then allow the prices to drift up. The UK has reportedly found commercial concentrations in deep well brine. Same with coal ash https://insideevs.com/news/325497/could-coal-become-a-major-source-of-lithium-geochemists-think-so/
The coal ash aspect is interesting as it could be driver for cleaning up old ash sites. The one big caveat is frequently once a dump site is officially "closed", no one will reopen it as they are liable for anything else

BTW, same issues with copper, its a strategic material required for a transition to renewable world but the current method of extracting from sulfide deposits is incredibly intrusive and leaves a long term environmental legacy.
It comes down to its easier to develop a project in a 3rd world country than the first world. One of the reasons the developer of Pickett Mine was that it was potentially easier than building in Canada due to local of organized indigenous peoples resistance (the Maine tribes took offense at that assertion)

 

[maineguy]

There is plenty of lithium available in the world, its comes down to concentration, how easy it is to extract it and who owns it? China's approach is to subsidize (economics or ignore environmental impact) domestic production so they are the only supplier and then allow the prices to drift up. The UK has reportedly found commercial concentrations in deep well brine. Same with coal ash https://insideevs.com/news/325497/could-coal-become-a-major-source-of-lithium-geochemists-think-so/
The coal ash aspect is interesting as it could be driver for cleaning up old ash sites. The one big caveat is frequently once a dump site is officially "closed", no one will reopen it as they are liable for anything else

BTW, same issues with copper, its a strategic material required for a transition to renewable world but the current method of extracting from sulfide deposits is incredibly intrusive and leaves a long term environmental legacy.
It comes down to its easier to develop a project in a 3rd world country than the first world. One of the reasons the developer of Pickett Mine was that it was potentially easier than building in Canada due to local of organized indigenous peoples resistance (the Maine tribes took offense at that assertion)

My understanding is that China is the third largest producer of lithium. However, it is the largest consumer of lithium which it uses for battery production. It imports most of it's lithium from Australia, which is the worlds largest producer. Yes, there is plenty of lithium in the world, but not many producers of lithium batteries. Allowing China to be our major source of these batteries, is just plain and simply criminally stupid. Economics be damned, there just comes a point where you just have to bite the bullet and figure out a way to make these batteries in a less environmentally damaging manner, and in the US.

 

[NHClimber]

My understanding is that China is the third largest producer of lithium. However, it is the largest consumer of lithium which it uses for battery production. It imports most of it's lithium from Australia, which is the worlds largest producer. Yes, there is plenty of lithium in the world, but not many producers of lithium batteries. Allowing China to be our major source of these batteries, is just plain and simply criminally stupid. Economics be damned, there just comes a point where you just have to bite the bullet and figure out a way to make these batteries in a less environmentally damaging manner, and in the US.

Which we will never do b/c at this point too many people have a zero tolerance policy for any mining practice that causes meaningful environmental harm, which they all do. So the only way it could become economical is through govt subsidy, and it will still have a materially negative impact given .gov involvement. And whether we like it or not, we have to pay attention to economics as we are running out of those resources as well.

 

[peakbagger]

About 15 years ago solar panel production ran into a wall due to silicon production. There was shortage of factories and panel producers had to sign long term contracts (years not months) to lock in supply. Silicon is effectively beach sand but purifying it to the purity needed uses some very toxic chemicals and recycling and reuse/disposal was a significant portion of the cost for production and equipment. I think the number was 500 million for the factory and a billion for the waste reprocessing plant. There were other chemistries developed, in particular CIGS (copper indium gallium selenide) which were cheaper and had less toxic byproducts than silicon refining. (Cadmium telluride was an also ran but they were difficult to dispose of) Folks may remember Nanosolar or Solyndra in CA as companies who bet their future and lots of taxpayer dollars on CIGS as being the low cost future. About that time China decided to "own" the solar market and they could build plants much less expensively than other countries as they didn't treat the wastes from the refining thus the plants cost far less and could be built quicker. They drove the cost of refined silicon down way below any projections and billions were lost on futures and plants albeit at a major environmental cost. There is new technology using Perovskites poised to make silicon panels obsolete due to potentially lower cost/higher efficiency.

I have no doubt the market for batteries could shift away from Lithium. There is at least a 30% chance that lithium chemistry may not be the the final element for batteries long term. There are other chemistries that are not lithium dependent or use far less for high power density. Tesla has had to effectively scrap parts of their battery production lines twice and is looking at doing it again. The big car firms effectively subcontracted battery production to third parties and are just now partnering for new plants and no doubt the technology will be outdated before the cars built with them go off the road. Lithium batteries can be recycled, there are a couple of firms that offer storage battery leases, they lessor gets use of the battery for some fixed duration and the lithium is recycled at the end.

Unlike Lithium, the need for and technology for copper and aluminum is mature, I dont see any radical shifts in demand to support a low carbon future.

 

[peakbagger]

BTW, its back again https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/01/20/news/penobscot/pickett-mountain-new-mining-permit-filed/
As discussed on another thread, the proposed mine is a sulfide mine which has the potential for significant environmental impacts that are effectively "forever" within a human reference. The goal of the developer is to strip out the economic assets for some limited time and then leave the long term issues for someone else to deal with.

 

[maineguy]

I wouldn't worry about this. The rezoning application requires a public hearing. If approved by the Land Use Planning Commission the mine needs a permit from the Maine Dept of Environmental Protection. If granted, some environmental group will file a lawsuit. That will be followed with a petition for a public referendum. The issue will be placed on the ballot for the next regular election. The loser will file a lawsuit to overturn the vote. Courts will make decisions, which will be appealed ad infinitum. By the time the process is concluded...it won't matter because we will have discovered or synthesized some replacement element.

 

[peakbagger]

I tend to agree unless the US elects to go with expedited permitting for defense materials which is being discussed.

 

[skiguy]

I wouldn't worry about this. The rezoning application requires a public hearing. If approved by the Land Use Planning Commission the mine needs a permit from the Maine Dept of Environmental Protection. If granted, some environmental group will file a lawsuit. That will be followed with a petition for a public referendum. The issue will be placed on the ballot for the next regular election. The loser will file a lawsuit to overturn the vote. Courts will make decisions, which will be appealed ad infinitum. By the time the process is concluded...it won't matter because we will have discovered or synthesized some replacement element.

Well put. Sounds like The State of Maine. Interesting to read this thread as it echoes much of what has been said in more recent threads. I guess not much has changed in the last few years.

 

[TCD]

Same thing in NY. It's now a standard tactic for any group opposed to any project. In the business world, there's a window during which a project will work financially. Tie the project up in court, even with entirely frivolous BS, and you can delay it until the window closes. Later, when the project is finally approved, but much too late (like several years too late) to hit the window, the project will fail. Then the opponents will trot out the line "See? It was never feasible in the first place." Of course that's a lie, but they don't care, as long as they kill the project.

 

[peakbagger]

Looks like another nail in the coffin for the Pickett Mountain project. LUPC staff recommends denying key permit for proposed Wolfden mine

Maine has been flagged as having commercially viable deposits for copper, rare earths and other strategic materials that currently are mined and processed offshore. Maine laws seem to be preventing mines being built so far. I suspect the only way it will change is a new federal administration gets voted in and decides to use defense materials laws on the books to override state laws.

 

[skiguy]

https://maineaudubon.org/news/big-news-pickett-mountain-mine-proposal-rejected/

 

[NHClimber]

Eventually we will have to mine in our own country for rare earth metals.

 

[Hillwalker]

A little history from next door: https://www.vermontpublic.org/local...forgotten-history-of-copper-mining-in-vermont

 

[peakbagger]

And a Maine superfund site at an former copper mine https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/S...fuseaction=second.Cleanup&id=0101028#bkground

 

[Hillwalker]

This one is less than a mile through the woods from my old house on Atwell Hill Road in Wentworth. Part of the AT Boundary went through the site with the AT Boundary Monuments and blazes visible from the mine portal. I walked through there on a curiosity hike before the second cleanup event and it was a real mess with bluish water trickling out of the collapsed portal. I still have a ten pound ore sample that I picked up that day in my oddities collection.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/whitemountain/landmanagement/projects/?cid=stelprdb5209640

 

[peakbagger]

Probably the biggest mess in the region is in Eden VT. https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=8889 The Long Trail runs immediately adjacent but upwind of the site. Belvidere Mtn has a fire tower, its rather nice hike from RT 118. Years ago when I was looking for a large rural piece of property in VT or Northern NH, I was pointed towards several lots in the area by various brokers. For some reason they didnt disclose the nearby superfund site . Despite being fenced and gated, every so often folks break in and ride ATVs around the site.

No plans in place to actually deal with the site, just keep it gated up and hope the wind does not blow.

I believe there is another large old mine in the Franconia/Silver Hill area. Not sure if there is any environmental legacy.

There is also an abandoned mine with tailing piles in Milan NH in the Copperville area. The town of Milan now owns it.

 

[NHClimber]

Probably the biggest mess in the region is in Eden VT. https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=8889 The Long Trail runs immediately adjacent but upwind of the site. Belvidere Mtn has a fire tower, its rather nice hike from RT 118. Years ago when I was looking for a large rural piece of property in VT or Northern NH, I was pointed towards several lots in the area by various brokers. For some reason they didnt disclose the nearby superfund site . Despite being fenced and gated, every so often folks break in and ride ATVs around the site.

No plans in place to actually deal with the site, just keep it gated up and hope the wind does not blow.

I believe there is another large old mine in the Franconia/Silver Hill area. Not sure if there is any environmental legacy.

There is also an abandoned mine with tailing piles in Milan NH in the Copperville area. The town of Milan now owns it.

The Eden VT site was an asbestos mine. Not the most dangerous of the various types of asbestos, but still asbestos. A lot of tailings run off. Can see on satellite.

It’s really a no win situation. We can’t rely on other countries (mostly China) to supply raw material. On the other hand, mining is highly destructive to the environment. Pick your poison -- the environment slowly is destroyed whether its from carbon emissions or from other factors. For now, it’s mostly out of sight out of mind for the folks who are chasing EVs but eventually people will see how environmentally unfriendly the industry is. Btw, I don’t have the answer. Like I said, pick your poison -- the earth has a huge population and it consumes massive resources. And I suspect that more environmentally conscious (if that isn't an oxymoron) mining processes are super expensive, the costs of which are also passed to the consumer. People think there is a silver bullet, like EVs, but I'm afraid there isn't. Every technology has its environmental problems.