Question about Legal Sleeping in the Whites

[Will]

I have always advised that nobody should sleep in the White Mountains without a lawyer, a surveyor and a lobbyist for the party currently in power among your hiking partners.

But here's a question, just in case you're out on your own.

A typical rules area: 200 feet from a trail or water source, a quarter mile from a trailhead or hut or shelter, under the tree line.

You find yourself collapsing after a long day of hiking. You find a spot meeting the 200 feet, quarter mile requirements.

On one side is a solid bank of trees more than eight feet high, extending forever. At your head (or feet, depending on which way you collapse) there are a tree or trees at least eight feet high. But in the other direction (your head or feet) there are trees/shrubs lower than eight feet high. And on your other side you are also abutting trees/shrubs lower than eight feet high. In other words you have found yourself in increasing darkness and cold at the edge of a meadow.

Are you legal?

 

[mahony]

Do you drive 66mph on the hwy? You are splitting hairs. Would I do it...yes.

I think the rules are meant to prevent sleeping on the top of Mt. Chocorua or on a flat rock in the middle of the East Branch. If you have to search for a spot that is so "gray" that the Supreme Court would have to arbitrate then you've probably gone far enough. Oh, and you'd have to get caught.

Considering the egregious on-trail (like middle of the footway) violations I've seen, seems to me your scenario is just too remote to be concerned.

 

[MichaelJ]

As far as I'm aware, the 8' rule is specifically to demarcate the start of the alpine zone. If your shorter trees are not a part of the alpine zone, just an old blowdown or clearcut or a meadow, then you should be fine.

 

[Craig]

If you LNT were ever really there?

 

[Tom Rankin]

If you LNT were ever really there?

If you LNT, you couldn't possibly have been there.

 

[Craig]

How bout:

If you camped above treeline on durable services and left no trace would that be meeting the intent of the rules?

For instance, you camp in a location above treeline where you’re presence isn’t readily apparent.
You set up your tent on a smooth flat ledge guying it with loose rocks from the surrounding area.
You don’t use a stove and eat only process food and water you’ve brought.
You carry out all your trash and waste and scatter the rocks you used for guying your tent.

Have you met the intent?

 

[leaf]

just sleep in your car at the trailhead.. the rangers love that.

 

[Jay H]

there's always Wal-Mart..

Jay

 

[dug]

Don't camp, just rest for a bit. That's legal just about anywhere (save for fragile alpine grasses that you can't even step on, for example).

 

[Will]

As far as I'm aware, the 8' rule is specifically to demarcate the start of the alpine zone. If your shorter trees are not a part of the alpine zone, just an old blowdown or clearcut or a meadow, then you should be fine.

I wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about, at the spot I'm using as an example, RIGHT AT treeline, but with the trees on the downhill side so thick you can't get into them but just lie down parallel to them at the edge. On one side are eight foot high trees, extending forever, on the other side are trees or shrubs or whatever, lower than eight feet, extending forever.

As far as LNT, I learned to sleep in the woods that way from day one. Except I had never even heard of LNT, just figured it was common sense. I rarely camp when backpacking, just lie down to sleep for awhile.

But I hate even the notion of being waken up and hassled so I'm trying to clarify a real situation I'm sometimes faced with. Sure, the odds of a backwoods enforcer actually managing to find me are remote, but:

1. I don't like even long odds and
2. I _believe_ in intent the regulations and I would like to be a good citizen.

 

[psmart]

I wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about, at the spot I'm using as an example, RIGHT AT the alpine zone demarcation, but with the trees on the downhill side so thick you can't get into them but just lie down parallel to them at the edge. On one side are eight foot high trees, extending forever, on the other side are trees or shrubs or whatever, lower than eight feet, extending forever.

Even the edge of the alpine zone is a fragile area, and I suspect the USFS would consider this to be camping in the alpine zone. You also need to consider the possible outcome if other folks follow your example. Repeated use can have a rapid and substantial impact.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I have always tried to obey, and for the most part have always obeyed the rules. But, first and foremost I feel that if my continuing to prevent violation of one of those rules may result in injury. I don't continue. I don't know how the FS would interpret it but I would figure if they don't need to do a rescue, then we are all better off. Short of that, I never knowingly violate the rules.

Just my $.02
Keith

 

[Peaks]

How bout:

If you camped above treeline on durable services and left no trace would that be meeting the intent of the rules?

For instance, you camp in a location above treeline where you’re presence isn’t readily apparent.
You set up your tent on a smooth flat ledge guying it with loose rocks from the surrounding area.
You don’t use a stove and eat only process food and water you’ve brought.
You carry out all your trash and waste and scatter the rocks you used for guying your tent.

Have you met the intent?

Not in the eyes of the USFS. I know of at least one USFS backcountry ranger that makes it a point to get up in the alpine zone before the crack of dawn looking for people camping there.

 

[Will]

Even the edge of the alpine zone is a fragile area, and I suspect the USFS would consider this to be camping in the alpine zone. You also need to consider the possible outcome if other folks follow your example. Repeated use can have a rapid and substantial impact.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You're probably right that it's a bustable offense. I was looking for a better answer dammit!

But as far as your additional Kantian point, looking at it separately, I can't agree. If you LNT there's no reason for your use of an apparently virgin spot to encourage others to use that same spot. In my case the virgin impact is even less in that I tend to cook/eat/crap/hang out elsewhere from where I sleep. But that's a whole other debate: about using hardened vs. apparently virgin sites, not the issue I'm asking about.

 

[Grayjay]

Do you drive 66mph on the hwy? You are splitting hairs. Would I do it...yes.

I think the rules are meant to prevent sleeping on the top of Mt. Chocorua or on a flat rock in the middle of the East Branch.


I know a reputable summer camp that annually sends its counsellors to the top of Mount Chocorua for an overnight on the summit rocks. Ofcourse, they are meticulous in cleaning up sign of their violation.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

The one thing here that nobody pointed out....Poor planning... rarely seen as an excuse... Hiking until you are just too tired to go any further?

One should know where you are... that you're getting close to an alpine zone.... that it's getting late.... that you're getting tired...and act accordingly before you reach your limit.

 

[Chip]

I know a reputable summer camp that annually sends its counsellors to the top of Mount Chocorua for an overnight on the summit rocks. Ofcourse, they are meticulous in cleaning up sign of their violation.

It's not my concern, but some would question how reputable an organization can be that knowingly violates Da Rules on a regular, scheduled basis.

As far as LNT in a fragile zone, also not my concern, but it can't happen. You're having been there has crushed, disturbed, destroyed, something. That's why they call the zones fragile.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

The one thing here that nobody pointed out....Poor planning... rarely seen as an excuse... Hiking until you are just too tired to go any further?

One should know where you are... that you're getting close to an alpine zone.... that it's getting late.... that you're getting tired...and act accordingly before you reach your limit.

By way of explanation if you were talking about me. Again this has only occurred once that I can remember in a few decades of camping but it goes something like this. Arrive at the trail-head around 11PM and start in everyone feeling great. This is our normal routine. At 2AM start looking for an area to setup camp because my partner is feeling very sick and moving much slower than normal. But, never having been in the area before come to the realization that there is no suitable area to camp. We then try to proceed to a hut and find out that it is closed and not available to use and told to get out of the area even after explaining the situation. Now closer to 4AM. My partner (younger, stronger hiker than I) is now weak, exhausted and throwing up, so going farther up to another site I thought might be legal and suitable was not an option so we proceeded down to finally find a suitable, though probably illegal tent-site. His continuing was not an option unless I wanted to risk his health or his possible injury so that is the decision I made. I considered it reasonable and justifiable. It took another day for him to come around and we eventually modified the week camping trip to a less strenuous trip which he was able to accomplish and he walked out under his own steam after six or seven days out.

Keith

 

[Ridgewalker]

Digress button on....

What if there was discipline of jurisprudence called 'sleeping malpractice'?
or hiking law?

Digress button off...


Even if you were forced to sleep out in a restricted/wilderness zone, and the USFS found you, the emergency and situation would be weighed against you for your reason for breaking the law.

 

[andrewb]

Speaking of Chocorua, if you literally were to sleep on the rocks, how could you possibly do any damage? Just a foam pad and sleeping bag under the stars? If you didn't eat there, showed up after dark and woke up/ packed up at sunrise, I just don't see how you could do any harm or be an eyesore either. I know if you did this, then you could sleep somewhere else and this slippery slope is why there are rules, but we also get to draw our own lines.