Redlining racist?

[rocket21]

I think you missed the "T," as in, a quick glance at an MBTA map explains the context of the name of the subway line.

And a quick glance at the patch explains the context of the name of the hiking game.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

If the blog article linked in the original post and edited from "lost" to "racist" is the design of the bumper sticker that started this ball rolling, then there does not appear to be any context that might indicate this is a hiking "game". Even when including a map and a sharpie, the wrong context could be inferred from one's own experiences. The patch is probably less ambiguous.

I don't know the blog author and have never seen the bumper sticker. YMMV. IANAL. Etc.
Tim

 

[Grey J]

Anyone have any thoughts on my "Death March" comment from above - about how that terms carries extreme horribleness in its history but is used to describe an extremely long climb/hike?

Guilty as charged on the use of that term in casual conversation. The most famous death march in American history is probably the Bataan Death March in the Philippines during WWII. That is certainly not something you would want to diminish or mock even unintentionally. And of course the Armenian genocide during WWI when they were marched across the desert and perished in unbelievable numbers stands out in recent world history. From now on, I will switch to the word "slog."

Owl's Head was probably my biggest slog in the Whites although Bond and West Bond as a day hike from the north was a pretty close second. The difference is probably that I was solo on Owl's Head but had company on the Bonds. While I never heard Chopin's iconic Funeral March playing on either of these hikes, I could swear that I heard the relentless raga beat of Kashmir somewhere around mile 15 returning from Owl's Head.

 

[TEO]

Guilty as charged on the use of that term in casual conversation. The most famous death march in American history is probably the Bataan Death March in the Philippines during WWII. That is certainly not something you would want to diminish or mock even unintentionally. And of course the Armenian genocide during WWI when they were marched across the desert and perished in unbelievable numbers stands out in recent world history.

Let's not forget the "Trail of Tears."

 

[jdhill08]

As far as I can tell, it seems more like white people being offended on behalf of black people than black people being offended. Maybe that has to do with hiking demographics but the few black people I know who are actually familiar with NH hiking culture aren't offended and have been called brainwashed for disagreeing with Carcia's assertion.

I think this is an important comment.

I believe that addressing issues of racial injustice is important in society. I also believe that white folks interested in addressing racial issues should listen to what the preponderance of nonwhite folks want rather than making assumptions and/or projecting views onto them. It is not at all clear to me that the push to change the name of "red-lining" is something that is mostly coming from nonwhite hikers.

Is this change something that most nonwhite hikers care about and want? Is it patronizing and paternalistic to assume that nonwhite hikers can't or won't want to make the distinction between the hiking practice and the financial discrimination practice?

It's hard to tell because there sure aren't many nonwhite voices in the conversation when the push to change the naming of redlining was put forth, as far as I can tell. And conversations that are mostly white folks talking about what's good for nonwhite folks make me uncomfortable.

 

[skiguy]

So the present hiking community now has a responsibility to change it’s rehtoric established by it’s for father’s centuries ago? George Washington was a slave owner. Thence the mountain’s namesake. Another group awhile back was ready to change the name back to it’s Native American origin. So then whom would have been offended. If “Redlining” is a problem the agenda is long.

 

[Puma concolor]

Only racists climb Mount Washington or go to that state or that city. The evidence is overwhelming.

Also, the “Presidential Range.” Don’t even get me started.

And what’s up with the big push to get Tecumseh taken off the 48 list???

 

[Mike P.]

Another vote that the Trail of Tears would be the worst. I've used the Death march early on. Now, usually it's just in my head on a solo hike, either due to distance or weather and usually think of it as a slog. I haven't added any other descriptive words yet, question would be which additional adjectives.

Miserable slog
abysmal slog,
soul sucking slog,
mind numbing slog,
slog of woe,
Slog to end all slogs

 

[dug]

https://www.boston.com/culture/lifestyle/2021/03/04/walking-every-street-cambridge-sophie-crafts

Interestingly timed article. This woman is walking every street in Cambridge, MA. She's using a blue marker.

 

[jfb]

Please re-read my initial post in this thread.

Ok, now I see that we agree that the hiking community is not racist. My only problem is lack of sensitivity to the feelings of others.

 

[maineguy]

Looks like I was a racist engineer...

If math can be racist (see Oregon school board) then I guess engineering is too.

When it comes to wokeness...it is never enough, there is always something else to complain about

 

[Grey J]

Let's not forget the "Trail of Tears."

How could I forget that. It literally started in my back yard, what is now Renaissance Park. (see photos) US ethnic cleansing, 19th century style and a sordid tale we like to forget. However to Mike P's point, perhaps not "the worst" although it is perhaps a fool's errand to qualify or even quantify such endeavors. Estimates are that a million Armenians died in the 1915 genocide and at least tens of thousands on the march across the desert. Estimates are all we have on the Bataan death march as well, but between 5,000-18,000 Filipinos and around 600 Americans are believed to have perished. Of the 16,000 Cherokee and other indigenous tribes sent west on the Trail of Tears, it is believed that approximately 4,000 perished along the way. Which to be clear in no way diminishes the horror and the injustice.

 

[TEO]

Ok, now I see that we agree that the hiking community is not racist. My only problem is lack of sensitivity to the feelings of others.

Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)

One of the problems is that us white people become defensive because most of us equate be racist with being a bad person, and that's not true. Some people prefer talking about individuals having racial prejudice and whereas using racism to talk about the systemic problems. Now, of course, intentionally saying and doing racist things is bad, but as white people, we can't control the color of our skin. We can seek to undo the systems of power that sustain racism, and we can work at being aware of our own prejudices and biases. Is racism the only iniquity in this country? Hardly, but it is the most pervasive and most ingrained.

Now, I'm sure that there are people who scoff at all of this, but they're white and they don't have any idea of what their fellow citizens who are people of color experience.

Should we stop using "Red-lining" to describe hiking all the trails in the WMG. My initial thought is, no, but I'm not sure. Is the bumper sticker likely 'cause people to go WTF?! Yes. Is it dumb? Probably. If you want a cool bumper sticker so that you can be identified by others in the know, I would suggest "WMG" in black letters on a white background or with topo lines in the background—too busy?—and the "WMG" traced in red.

 

[TEO]

Of the 16,000 Cherokee and other indigenous tribes sent west on the Trail of Tears, it is believed that approximately 4,000 perished along the way. Which to be clear in no way diminishes the horror and the injustice.

I agree that it's not a competition about who can have the worst "Death March," but the Encyclopedia Britannica article that I linked to puts the numbers for the Trail of Tears much higher, with approximately 100,000 Native Americans—not just Cherokee—and 15,000 deaths. The discrepancy may be that some refer to just the Cherokee displacement as the Trail of Tears, whereas others use it for a series of forced removals of Native American nations.

 

[B the Hiker]

So the present hiking community now has a responsibility to change it’s rehtoric established by it’s for father’s centuries ago? George Washington was a slave owner. Thence the mountain’s namesake. Another group awhile back was ready to change the name back to it’s Native American origin. So then whom would have been offended. If “Redlining” is a problem the agenda is long.

To answer your question, yes, as society changes, so must the language we employed. You yourself acknowledged this when you used term "Native American," which "our" forefathers (I'm third generation immigrant) never would have used. They would have said "Indian."

George Washington was a slave owner, but he freed them all upon his death, because he knew what he was doing was wrong. History takes that into account. Calhoun was also a slave owner. He had a Yale college named after him. That name recently got changed.

Speaking of changing mountain names, the official name for Denali used to Mt. Mickinley. That also got changed.

Food for thought.

Brian

 

[B the Hiker]

Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)

One of the problems is that us white people become defensive because most of us equate be racist with being a bad person, and that's not true. Some people prefer talking about individuals having racial prejudice and whereas using racism to talk about the systemic problems. Now, of course, intentionally saying and doing racist things is bad, but as white people, we can't control the color of our skin. We can seek to undo the systems of power that sustain racism, and we can work at being aware of our own prejudices and biases. Is racism the only iniquity in this country? Hardly, but it is the most pervasive and most ingrained.

Now, I'm sure that there are people who scoff at all of this, but they're white and they don't have any idea of what their fellow citizens who are people of color experience.

Should we stop using "Red-lining" to describe hiking all the trails in the WMG. My initial thought is, no, but I'm not sure. Is the bumper sticker likely 'cause people to go WTF?! Yes. Is it dumb? Probably. If you want a cool bumper sticker so that you can be identified by others in the know, I would suggest "WMG" in black letters on a white background or with topo lines in the background—too busy?—and the "WMG" traced in red.

Thank you for this thoughtful post!

 

[jfb]

Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this.

OK, then as a white member of the hiking community, I'm called a racist. I can live with that. I'll continue to work on my lack of sensitivity issue.

 

[ChrisB]

Only racists climb Mount Washington or go to that state or that city. The evidence is overwhelming.

Also, the “Presidential Range.” Don’t even get me started.

And what’s up with the big push to get Tecumseh taken off the 48 list???

Question:

Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

Again I ask, What's the big deal with a name change if it addresses an historical wrong?

Our history is littered with the abuse of non-whites at the hands of the white majority. I believe we are now facing a reckoning as a nation. As part of that it's necessary to acknowledge that some of our heroes and forefathers were not as god-like as we've been taught.

There is a raft of correspondence between Jefferson and Adams discussing the irony of the "All men are created equal" quote in the Declaration. Adams points out that the "men" Jefferson is referring to were white men only. How could he do this? By assuming that people of color were something less.... than white men. To their credit Jefferson and Adams remained friends throughout their lives, with Adams playing the role of provocateur to Jefferson’s writings and ideas. I guess it's no coincidence they stand near each other in the northern Presis.

In its way, this thread is a continuation of their dialog begun 250 years ago.

 

[Andrew]

I used to have to give a safety talk to school groups of kids of all age ranges before letting them loose on mountain trails. One busload of 8-10 year old's I thought I was a superstar with my witty references and theatrical antics to get important points across. This one girl was looking at me in extreme anger and only got more upset as I spoke. As the bus was unloading she walked right up to me and jabbed her finger angrily at me and blurted out "You know there are girls on this bus and not just guys." Well I was referring to the collective as "You guy's" in what I thought was a generic "people/persons" term. I used other terms from then on and have lost nothing for doing so.

 

[OldEric]

Question:

Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

I agree with this sentiment and most of the previous ones you have posted in this thread. I think it has served a good purpose in making more people aware of a number of things. How they react and possibly rationalize only reflects on them and not the facts. That said renaming things - essentially rewriting history 1984 style - is a slippery slope. This thread is but a tempest in a teacup compared to what's been going on with names in the climbing world for the last 6 months. One of the upstream posts mentioned the Gunks route "Bitchy Virgin" - I guess its clear why they might be offensive but pretty minor. Do people equally see why they might be offended by the route "Boston" - how many have a clue of the origin?

I've done a few FA's (first ascents) and one I named "The Porno Book" (A "book" is an inside corner in climbing terms) and a certain prude CT guidebook author (who went on to notariaty for other reasons) renamed it "The Good Book" in his guidebook. C'est La Vie.

But I always have and always will climb "Shockey's" and not "The Ceiling".