Sigma DP1

[Brambor]

There is a rise in buzz and discussion over the upcoming compact camera from Sigma called Sigma DP1. I think this camera could be of interest to many of us here as it is a small portable unit with a full size sensor. (not full frame).

This camera is the size of a point and shoot camera. It has a fixed lens (equivalent of 28mm field of view) and it houses a Foveon Sensor. This sensor is known for recording greater color depth than any proffessional camera with Bayer Sensor (Canon ... ).

I think that it would be ideal for landscape and nature shots for us backpackers as well as a 'take anywhere' camera that produces outstanding results.

Here are a few links to give you more information:

Video on you tube

Official Site

 

[skiguy]

Thanks for posting this. I really like the inclusion of a Viewfinder....and it's removable! Kool

 

[nartreb]

No zoom? No thanks. A relatively large sensor and they only manage 4.6 megapixels (but they claim 14, by counting each color separately). I'm sure the sensor has low noise and good sensitivity, but they don't say what ISO adjustments (if any) are permitted. [EDIT: I think I saw an ISO adjustment menu in the video. Wasn't clear if it went past 400.]

I really dislike it when marketers claim their product has "all the power of" something it's not. Does it have the power to change lenses?

This one doesn't even have as many shooting modes as many other compact cameras. And, again, it doesn't have a zoom. I don't care how good the sensor is (not that they've actually made ANY performance claims for the sensor), it's useless if I can't frame the shot I want. It's hard to "zoom with your feet" when you're standing on a ledge.

 

[Brambor]

it has a digital zoom like the other cams. the difference here is in the resolution of the final images. If you want a great landscape digital without lugging a tripod and a dslr then this is your camera.

 

[nartreb]

If you use a digital zoom, say goodbye to resolution, and this camera doesn't have much resolution to start with. Most compact cameras have an optical zoom (plus a digital zoom for people who don't care about resolution).

 

[David Metsky]

it has a digital zoom like the other cams.

Digital zoom is not worth anything, you can do digital zooming better in the computer then in the camera.

While the Foveon sensors have shown promise, they are underfunded and haven't kept up with development of "traditional" sensors. Their releases to date haven't been spectacular.

 

[Brambor]

I said it has digital zoom but it doesn't mean I would actually use it.

I agree that digital zoom is nothing more than cropping in the camera. The sensor, however, is 8 times the size or regular point and shoot sensor and that translates to quality pixels.

I can understand your objections. Perhaps my enthusiasm is underlined by the fact that I don't use any zoom at all on my DSLR. I only use prime lenses. Actually I would not buy this camera if it had a zoom.

Here is a link to an article comparing some characteristics between the sensors from Canon 5D and Sigma 14 which has the same sensor as the upcoming DP1

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

 

[David Metsky]

I understand that the technology is promising. But they've been promising stuff for years and it hasn't really born fruit. There are cheaper solutions to getting great landscape photos that also work as all around cameras. A fixed 28mm lens is a fairly serious limitation for most people. If I had to only carry one compact camera with me, this wouldn't be it.

Bottom line, it is technology with potential. But it's not packaged well and hasn't proven itself yet.

 

[Brambor]

David,

I can understand your reasoning for disliking fixed length lenses.

What cheaper solutions are you referring to? Using film would be a cheaper solution but I'm not aware of anything capable like this in the digital arena. The prerequisites are small package and a sensor normally used in DSLR cameras.

 

[darren]

Brambor, I can understand your interest in the camera. back when I shot film, one of my favorite cameras was my Yashica T4 Super. It is a small P&S, but it has an excellent meter and a fixed 35mm, f3.5 Carl Zeiss lens that was very sharp. It was the only P&S that I would shoot Fuji Velvia slide film with. It provided excellent results and exposure was on par with my expensive SLR. The bonus was that the camera could be stuck in my pocket.

When I didn't want to haul my big SLR around I would always stick that camera in my pocket. In fact even when I would haul around my SLR in my backpack, I would often still have that camera stuck in my pocket. It was easy to pull out and take snapshots with.

The 28mm sounds nice, but it's too bad they don't make one with a 24mm lens. If they did, I could see Tim Seaver sticking one in his pocket. Me too.

Initial pricing is around $1,000, which makes a pretty darn expensive alternative to carrying a SLR. I'd probably spend the money on a new lens and suck it up and carry mu DSLR.

- darren

 

[Paul_Bear]

. back when I shot film, one of my favorite cameras was my Yashica T4 Super. It is a small P&S, but it has an excellent meter and a fixed 35mm, f3.5 Carl Zeiss lens that was very sharp.

Initial pricing is around $1,000, which makes a pretty darn expensive alternative to carrying a SLR.
- darren

That was my first thought on reading the review. I loved my old T4 for occasions when I couldn't/wouldn't carry the SLR. I recently sold it on Ebay for $220 ... not bad given it cost $150 new and I'd used it heavily for 8 years. Apparently there are lots of fans of that camera.

I'd love to find the digital equivalent of the T4. My Canon S70 isn't a bad camera for something compact, but optically I don't think it compares to the T4. I could live with a fixed focus if the optics/sensor were good enough.

 

[Brambor]

yes. The DP1 may be pricy when it will be released. I hope for sub $800. The finish is supposedly aluminium and feels sturdy in hands. I have a feeling that it will be a hit among street shooters and backpackers who want the best quality in a little package. The sensor alone is 8 times (some claim 10 times) larger than any comparable digital Point and Shoot and the shots have been demonstrably compared to Canon 5D. That's a tall order but if it is CLOSE that is already an amazing feat for a little pocket camera. Here is a latest discussion thread on Fred Miranda. I don't know if you have to register to read it.

You can see that I am excited about this camera so I apologize in advance for the fanfare. I can understandLINK HERE

 

[Brambor]

followup

This camera is now available for sale and early users report spectacular results, especialy for landscape photography. The results are comparable to top of the line SLR's especially at ISO 100. Here is a link to official sample gallery

That being said, it is important to note that this camera is NOT for people who don't understand post processing RAW files. If you shoot jpgs then this camera is not for you. Also it is one of the priciest point and shoots at $800

link to a forum of sigma users

 

[darren]

This is a nice (large) shot of Mauna Kea with ski tracks:

http://www.sigma-dp1.com/sample-photo/img/SigmaDP1-008.jpg

That is a very interesting camera, but I would have to get the optional viewfinder plus the filter adapter is extra too. Plus the filter size is 46mm and I think Cokin only makes 46mm ring adapters for thier A size holders and my filters are P size...so more money for new filters... too much money.

Worth keeping in mind and seeing what the price does over time though. I'd certainly like to try one out.

- darren

 

[Brambor]

I have it.

For me the viewfinder is unnecessary but the hood ($15) is essential as well as extra battery.

 

[darren]

For me the viewfinder is unnecessary but the hood ($15) is essential as well as extra battery.

You can see the screen ok on a sunny day? That is a real frustration for me when I use P&S cameras with no viewfinder.

Does that hood adapter have the filter threads on it? How does the filter mount? The hood is square so where does the filter go? Between the camera and hood? Not sure whey they didn't just filt filter threads on the lens.

Can you use photoshop with the raw files or do you have to use the Sigma software? Is the Sigma software any good?

Sample shots????????????

I will be home in 6 weeks. Please make sure you will have the camera available to loan to me then.

- darren

 

[Brambor]

I'm not very good at reviews

I'm not very good at reviews as I tend not to be picky and I usually adjust to the camera if I like it enough.

So,

On Focusing:

The screen has three modes. Normal, Magnified and Off. Normal is what you have on other digicams. You see the scene, frame it, push the shutter halfway, green square tells you the focus lock has been achieved and then you press the shutter.

Magnified basically magnifies the screen to the middle square and makes it easier for you to check if you are in focus.

Screen off - is the pit of ultimate darkness



So focusing seems to work just like any other point and shoot. In my opinion, every other point and shoot camera (including) this one sucks at focusing. It is because the focus is based on screen contrast detection. If you try it in darkness or anywhere without good contrast you'll have more difficulty achieving focus lock. But under normal conditions it works.

This camera, however, has a really well designed and refreshing MANUAL FOCUS WHEEL. It is the coolest thing since before the sliced bread. Really. The wheel is marked in meter increments (infinity, 5 meters, 2 meters, 1 meter, .7, .5 and .4 and .3. The markings are there if you focus with the screen off. With the screen on you see a 'measure' line with the same markings. As you turn the wheel it adjusts the setting on the screen. Actually the line also shows with the screen off but ONLY the line and nothing else. That is also kind of cool as it does not burn batteries and it does not distract people behind you if you are in a discreet setting. The 'magnifying' screen setting is very useful here if you manually focus on a specific item. It makes it very precise.

Since this is essentially a 28mm field of view camera (16mm before the crop factor kicks in) it is very easy to set hyperfocal or to set your distance for manual focus. It's a no brainer. At 8.0 pretty much everything is in focus and at 5.6 it's really easy not to screw up. At 4.0 it takes a little bit of judgement but it's no big deal. For landscape photography or hiking you'll probably have the thing set at 5 meters and blast away. I have recently shot some really funky Punk Rockers at a club at almost total darkness by only nudging the focus wheel and never looking at the screen whatsoever. 28mm wide angle view makes this easy.

so is the screen ok on a sunny day? I guess it is. I have shot some beach on Saturday. But I have never kept a digital point and shoot for longer than a few hours before I completely hated it so this DP1 is my first and therefore I have no memory to compare to other compacts.

The hood comes in two pieces. one is round and another for the square to snap on. the threaded bayonet is on the first round piece and you can add a filter to it without impeding with the square hood.

You have to use Sigma Photo Pro to convert the RAWS to jpg. Then you take it to photoshop. Sigma Photo Pro is very thin. Installs as fast as a flash plugin. It is not the fastest piece of software. But here come the benefits.

With Foveon you have to forget your previous DSLR preferences.

With Canon or Nikon DSLR (Bayer Sensor Cameras) blown highlights that can not be recovered we usually underexpose and then pull the shadows out.

With Foveon it is almost preferred to overexpose. You can easily overexpose 2 stops and recover all your details. It is quite amazing actually.

It is not amazing if you underexpose though. Do not under expose anything. It's the pit of ultimate darkness

There is also a slider in photo pro that enable you to recover tons of lost shadows with their 'fill light' slider.

After you get the contrast and saturation and what not set in photo pro you save the file to jpg. You get a choice between small medium and large. The large setting makes files slightly larger than my Canon 5D - very nice actually. The medium is for best pixel quality but I honestly see very little difference between those two. I usually butcher the crap out of the file in Photoshop anyway.

So samples? Hmm. I haven't shot any landscapes and so I will include a shot of my house and my kid. After that I really have just some filthy PUNK pics at ISO 800 from a rock club.

The good news - no shutter lag!


Please feel free to ask more questions. I will be very happy to answer them.

 

[DougPaul]

Actually the line also shows with the screen off but ONLY the line and nothing else. That is also kind of cool as it does not burn batteries

This may not actually save power. An LCD screen works by running a backlight any time it is on. The individual pixels then act as variable filters to create the image. The backlight consumes most of the power. Thus an LCD consumes power any time the backlight is on no matter how much is shown on the display.

You have to use Sigma Photo Pro to convert the RAWS to jpg. Then you take it to photoshop. Sigma Photo Pro is very thin. Installs as fast as a flash plugin. It is not the fastest piece of software. But here come the benefits.

Dcraw may also be capable of reading the RAW file. (Some of the other Sigma Foveon cameras are listed as being supported. The DP1 is not listed, but if the file format is the same, it should work.) If so, it can output a 16-bit PGM/PPM/PAM file for use by other programs. (It can also output JPEG (8-bit).) http://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/

With Foveon it is almost preferred to overexpose. You can easily overexpose 2 stops and recover all your details. It is quite amazing actually.

It is not amazing if you underexpose though. Do not under expose anything. It's the pit of ultimate darkness

The characteristics of A/D converters are the same, no matter what kind of sensor is used. It sounds to me like the exposure system may be miscalibrated or at least calibrated differently than other cameras (strangely?). (For the best image, the sensor and the A/D should saturate at about the same light level at the slowest ISO setting.)

FWIW, the RAW format is 12-bit. (Same as most Canons and Nikons. Some of the newer Canons now have 14-bit formats.)

Doug