Sleeping Bags for Day Trips Was: Missing hiker

[dave.m]

How much sleeping bag do people carry on winter day trips?

I'm very glad that the recently rescued person had a -20f bag with him. But I note that it was reported they were planning on an overnight trip. I can't say that I would ever carry a -20f bag for a day trip.

My buds and I will often carry a single +20f bag and a bivy on winter day trips when we form a party of 3 or more. But on trips with only 2 of us, it nevers makes the cut in lieu of lighter packs.

Was wondering what others do.

 

[DougPaul]

Pretty much the same here, although we have carried a +15F bag and bivy with just two of us. (But not always...)

Doug

 

[focusonbalance]

Do you also carry a down or primaloft jacket and pants or just some extra insulating layers plus the bag and bivy?

 

[dave.m]

I generally carry both insulated pants and a parka of some sort. How thick depends on the temperatures but to be honest, this is judged more along the lines of "Will I stay warm when I eat lunch?" and not along the lines of "Will I survive 2 nights out?"

The pants are either lightly lined windpants (lined with light fleece) or primaloft side zip pants.

The parkas are either a light down sweater with a hood or a massive primaloft belay parka.

I really wouldn't want to carry more nor would I really want to have to survive in just this. Hence the +20f down bag.

 

[DougPaul]

My "me too" answer:

I almost always carry a down jacket--I have 3 weights, ranging from a down "sweater" to my "sleeping bag with sleeves" (expedition down parka).

I also carry fleece side-zip pants and water-proof breathable side-zip hard shell pants.

The fleece and shell pants are good enough for lift-served skiing, so they, with a down jacket and hard-shell jacket should enable me to survive most nights in the Whites.

The sleeping bag would be particularly important if someone were injured--shock comes on very quickly in the cold and keeping the victim warm is part of the treatment. Also, depending on the injuries, the victim might not be able to move around enough to create much heat.

Doug

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Something I carry is a bivy and vapor barrier liner... Think about it. In an emergency, one just has to fill it with insulation.

When hiking alone, I also have a +10F (maybe it's 20F) sleeping bag, as well as various items of clothing.

 

[Seeker]

I carry a down zero degree down bag--it paks small enough and is relatively light, an emergency bivy and my 700 count down parka. And a stove etc.

 

[sardog1]

A thread last fall, Availability of Blizzard Survival Bag, discussed some in extremis alternatives to sleeping bags, as have other threads that can be located by searching on "bivy bag".

 

[Woody]

Day hikes

For Day hikes I carry an emergency bivy bag and my down parka but not usually a sleeping bag for day hikes. I have carried the sleeping bag once or twice but the bag generally loses in favor of less weight. I have also carried a stove and fuel for longer above tree line hikes.

I tend to get the idiots that look at my day pack and ask me if I am out for the week. I now just tell them that I out for a 10 day trip and keep on my way and hope that they never have an problem when they are climbing with no gear in the winter.

 

[dug]

I usually carry a Zero bag, but have a puff jacket and a vest to use that can brin that down another 10-15 degrees, probably.

Something to sit on is important, too.

 

[dr_wu002]

I carry a bivy and some extra clothes. My assumption though is that I will be injured and not lost. I'm not a very risky hiker so I generally have some escape route even when bushwhacking. And I probably would not bushwhack alone in the winter. So, if I were injured my hope is that I could be located quickly enough to get taken out of there. Maybe I will look into taking a sleeping bag instead of some of the extra clothes. Maybe I should start hiking again though.

-Dr. Wu

 

[gaiagirl]

Thanks for the information on the Blizzard Bag, Sardog1, I missed that thread last time. I am going to order one today. Now I will definitely feel safer hiking alone in Winter from time to time, just don't want to get TOO bold for my own good! I'd like to be hiking for a long, long time to come.

 

[hikerfast]

One thing about sleeping bags, his ems -20 bag probably only weighs 4 pounds and doesn't take up THAT much space. The down is lighter and more compressable every year.
I usually carry my 'mr kool aid' down parka, rated to -50 degrees, and 300 weight fleece pants to put on, and a space blanket. I also have a double ziplock bag with firestarters(those sawdust and glue balls) and a couple of lighters and about 5 packs of windproof matches. I also usually carry a second fat man parka, in case someone else I'm with gets cold.

 

[Mike P.]

Will check tomorrow to make sure I have it but I should have one of the $25. bivy (ER) bags they sold at EMS a couple of years ago. (Do they still have them?)

Carry a couple of extra pieces of insulation - fleece for upper body & the full zip fleece pants that I never hike in (+ shell pants). My usual winter lower body wear is long john (synthetic) and some type of hiking pants, either lined or unlined.

I should see how small I could pack my Over-bag (inadequate for warmth but could be filled with extra fleece & much smaller than the synthetic +20 I have)

 

[dvbl]

Similar to what others have said in this thread, I believe in preparing for the worst when venturing out for a winter dayhike, although I admit I fall short sometimes. I know there's no neat clean answer to this, but I wonder sometimes what's the trade-off between the following:

1 -- carrying enough to survive a few unplanned nights in the winter woods, but therefore having a pack so heavy that you're slower, not as agile, more tired, and maybe more prone to the fall/ankle sprain/knee sprain/crampon tumble/etc that will necessitate all those things in your pack.

versus

2 -- carrying a winter "dayhike" pack, not being prepared for overnight survival, but maybe not needing to because you're now much faster, lighter, more agile, energetic, and less prone to take a tumble.

Basically a debate of "prepare for the worst" vs "speed equals safety"

 

[sapblatt]

bivy bag - always
layers (long underwear, fleece pants) - always
primaloft jacket with attached hood - except in summer

sometimes - 15+ degree down bag - weighs less than two pounds - smaller than a bread loaf...Marmot...depends on the trip...mostly wooded, well used trail with others - I would not carry it usually unless temps were super low...

often carry stove and food, extra hot chocolate, thermos, etc....

 

[dvbl]

Similar to what others have said in this thread, I believe in preparing for the worst when venturing out for a winter dayhike, although I admit I fall short sometimes. I know there's no neat clean answer to this, but I wonder sometimes what's the trade-off between the following:

1 -- carrying enough to survive a few unplanned nights in the winter woods, but therefore having a pack so heavy that you're slower, not as agile, more tired, and maybe more prone to the fall/ankle sprain/knee sprain/crampon tumble/etc that will necessitate all those things in your pack.

versus

2 -- carrying a winter "dayhike" pack, not being prepared for overnight survival, but maybe not needing to because you're now much faster, lighter, more agile, energetic, and less prone to take a tumble.

Basically a debate of "prepare for the worst" vs "speed equals safety"

oops...sorry...just noticed this idea is presently being convered in Chip's thread on what to carry in winter. Sorry for the (unintentional) redundancy.

Frasier Crane: "Oh, so you're saying that I'm redundant, that I repeat myself, that I say things over and over!"

 

[Maddy]

1 -- carrying enough to survive a few unplanned nights in the winter woods, but therefore having a pack so heavy that you're slower, not as agile, more tired, and maybe more prone to the fall/ankle sprain/knee sprain/crampon tumble/etc that will necessitate all those things in your pack.
Basically a debate of "prepare for the worst" vs "speed equals safety"

DVBL...my comment is not directed at you personally. Just commenting on the topic in general.
I am thinking that unless you were very new to hiking you would know your limits, especially in the winter, and turn back before you lost your agility and were way too tired to handle your own pack.
I also think that if you are suffering that much carrying your pack because of your emergency gear, perhaps a little time in the gym with a personal trainer would help.
When I look back at the number of patients we got with fractured lower extremities, ankles, etc. because they slipped on their back stairs or in their driveways, it is really sobering. Many of them were traveling very light and some were even being cautious. That did not help them avert disaster. Just recently, Danielle Belanger (miracle in Moab) , the endurance athlete slipped on ice while out on a training run and suffered horrific injuries. She survived some 52 hrs but it was the general consensus that she would have died that night because the temps really plummeted. Two other hikers died during that same period out in Utah.
I honestly cannot see the logic in going light and believing that you will not have a mishap because you can hike at a greater rate of speed when you are unencumbered by emergency gear. In Danielle's case, speed might have very well been responsible for her fall. She did not see the ice in time and down she went. Light and fast!
I hate carrying a heavier pack but I honestly think I would hate freezing to death on some trail even more, not to mention losing extremities because of frostbite.
I always find myself concerned for new hikers on the boards who might want any excuse to go light and could find themselves in a really big mess because we encouraged them to do just that.
I would encourage them to take a winter survival course from the AMC or other like minded organizations. It can't hurt and it just might be very enlightening.
It might feel more comfortable to drive without a seatbelt on, but is it really safe?

 

[dvbl]

DVBL...my comment is not directed at you personally. Just commenting on the topic in general.
I am thinking that unless you were very new to hiking you would know your limits, especially in the winter, and turn back before you lost your agility and were way too tired to handle your own pack.
I also think that if you are suffering that much carrying your pack because of your emergency gear, perhaps a little time in the gym with a personal trainer would help.
When I look back at the number of patients we got with fractured lower extremities, ankles, etc. because they slipped on their back stairs or in their driveways, it is really sobering. Many of them were traveling very light and some were even being cautious. That did not help them avert disaster. Just recently, Danielle Belanger (miracle in Moab) , the endurance athlete slipped on ice while out on a training run and suffered horrific injuries. She survived some 52 hrs but it was the general consensus that she would have died that night because the temps really plummeted. Two other hikers died during that same period out in Utah.
I honestly cannot see the logic in going light and believing that you will not have a mishap because you can hike at a greater rate of speed when you are unencumbered by emergency gear. In Danielle's case, speed might have very well been responsible for her fall. She did not see the ice in time and down she went. Light and fast!
I hate carrying a heavier pack but I honestly think I would hate freezing to death on some trail even more, not to mention losing extremities because of frostbite.
I always find myself concerned for new hikers on the boards who might want any excuse to go light and could find themselves in a really big mess because we encouraged them to do just that.
I would encourage them to take a winter survival course from the AMC or other like minded organizations. It can't hurt and it just might be very enlightening.
It might feel more comfortable to drive without a seatbelt on, but is it really safe?

Good points. Well said.

 

[Squintyken]

I always thought down bags are light...

Where’s the weight?

This is my first post, so I hope I can paste in my arithmetic neatly (I don't know how to paste in tables).

Basically, a common question for hikers seems to be: how much weight to carry - but don't forget - Versus how much weight am I already carrying anyway?

I did some math, and found that my “overnight emergency package” of one bivy sack, down sleeping bag, and insulation pad is a whopping 2.92% of the total weight I have to carry up and down a mountain.

By comparison, I am 78.60% of the total weight I have to carry up and down the mountains and I am not interested in dieting.

Here are some sample gear weights and their percent of the total weight I carry on a winter day trip. (I recently weighed my pack at Pinkham Notch visitor center).

gear model / example weight in ounces percent total weight

bivy sac REI minimalist regular 15 0.41%
down bag marmot - 20 F 68 1.86%
insulation pad Therm-a-Rest ProLite 4 24 0.66%
SUBTOTAL “overnight package” 107 2.92%

backpack kelty red cloud, 92 liters 97 2.65%

water 3 quarts 96 2.62%
food 2 days / 4 meals 64 1.75%

subtotal “kitchen sink” winter pack 640 17.47%

1 Ken this year's model 2880 78.60%

plastic boots Koflach Degre 86 2.35%
snowshoes MSR Denali Classic 58 1.58%

TOTAL winter pack, footwear, Ken 3664 100.00%

(avoirdupois is such a pain, ain’t it?!)

Apparently other people are much better at packing lighter. A recent Discussion Thread entitled: “Total Winter Daypack Weight” (Yesterday, 05:36 PM marty Senior Member) seems to have this range of reported winter day packs: 22 lbs to 28 lbs. For my next set of calculations I’ll assume an average of 25 lbs.

So if I learned to pack lighter like other people, but still brought my standard overnight combo (bag, pad, bivy) I find that it’s still only 3.03% of the total mass I have to cart over hill and dale.

gear model / example weight in ounces percent total weight

bivy sac REI minimalist regular 15 0.42%
down bag marmot - 20 F 68 1.93%
insulation pad Therm-a-Rest ProLite 4 24 0.68%
SUBTOTAL "overnight package" 107 3.03%

subtotal lighter daypack 400 11.33%

Ken this year's model 2880 81.56%

plastic boots Koflach Degre 86 2.44%
snowshoes MSR Denali Classic 58 1.64%

TOTAL lighter pack, overnight, ken 3531 100.00%

(admittedly, if you want to make some bio-mechanical argument that weight on your back is much different than your own body weight, OK, the 107 oz would be 22% of a 507 oz total backpack).

By the way, my experience of searching these forums for the past couple of years tells me that VFTT compares very well to other resources such as “Freedom of the Hills” or the Boston AMC HB winter backpacking course, so thanks for all of your input!