Soft Shells???

[HikerBob]

FWIW - I day hiked through last winter in the Whites (including some of the coldest days) and found my ideal set up to be EMS Windshear pants and Marmot Driclime windshirt (looks like a jacket but not THE jacket) over mid-weight capilene longjohns (+boxers to help keep the boys warm) and a long-sleeved Techwick shirt.

That's a pretty lightweight set up but while in motion it was more than enough to keep me warm. On occasion the jacket and full side-zips in the pants would be opened up to aid venting.

Good boots, socks and gaiters and a variety of gloves and hats to keep the extremities toasty finish off the ensemble.

For planned stops I throw on a down vest or jacket. For unplanned stops I carry fleece pants and a good bivvy sack. Keeping hydrated and munching at every opportunity also helps keep the inner fires burning.

Last year was my first winter season and I started out wearing way too much and throwing on my (non-gortex) shell at the first sign of precipitation. I soon learned that getting soaked from sweat is worse than a little external dampness.

The hard shell now only sees service for wet and windy conditions.

Of course YMMV but IMHO after one winter of experience if you keep well fed and watered and the extremities warm, a soft-shell is all you need for most winter conditions.

Bob

PS - How many acronyms did I forget?

 

[Stan]

Well, all this input hasn't necessarily cleared anything up in my mind!!

That may be because there is no one simple winter layering system for everyone and it strikes me that most people develop their own system based upon experience and hiking objectives ... all probably tempered by our individual metabolisms.

My system, intended for dayhikes only, probably most closely resembles Holdstrong's for the reason that I generate quite a bit of heat and want something breathable and able to serve my need until either a) I stop, or b) the wind chill factor starts getting the best of me. Accordingly, my upper layers usually include a shortsleeve polypro t-shirt, polypro long johns, mid weight fleece and windbloc fleece vest. I carry a gortetex shell with heavy fleece (North Face Denali) liner.

If you need something breathable it doesn't sound like the "soft shell" will work that well.

One more thing, when I wash the fleece and outer shell I soak it for a while in that wash generally available at outdoor stores (someone will have to help with the brand name if that's important to anyone) and spray it with something like scotch guard. This helps extend the conditions under which those fleece layers suffice ... not rain but certainly that fine frozen drizzle that helps create that wondrous rime ice.

 

[skiguy]

A Layer and an Outer!

I would agree with Holdstrong on this one. Soft shells are a more flexible Outer Fleece layer but also serve well as a Mid layer in an overall system.
Soft shells (Schoeller) in my opinion are highly more breatable than Gore and way more water resistant than fleece. The thing that scares most people about soft shells is the lack of Waterproofness that Gore supplies. I have found softshells to be extremely water resistant, to the point of staying dry in light rain. In other words good until the wettest of conditions...then I would put a hardshell on over the soft shell,thence the soft shell now becomes a part of the layering system.With softshells I find I can play down my layers underneath the shell itself because of the superior breathability. In other words you donot wet out as much from the inside therefore insulative layers can be lighter weight; which also leads to greater freedom of movement.I would not get rid of my Goretex jacket, I would get rid of that bulky heavyweight fleece jacket and get a softshell.

 

[jethro]

Good discussion; I use a Marmot Sharp Point (I think it has Gore vs. Schoeller, the Gore being more wind resistant but less breathable - it does have pit zips however) along with a 300 weight fleece for insulation (only comes out if I stop or on descent) and the Marmot Precip as an outer shell (great inexpensive piece of gear btw, weighs nothing and crumples up into a pant pocket).

I've tried a bunch of soft shells, I think my favorite was the Cloudveil Ice Floe w/hood, but the $250-$300 price tag was just too steep. Any of them will do just fine insulating you on the way up - I've gone out with just the shell on in below zero conditions and was incredibly comfy.

Can't comment on effectiveness in rain since I avoid hiking in it like the plague; snow is obviously not a problem. Anyhow, soft shells are not God's gift to hiking, but I think coupled with the right auxiliary gear they beat spending $500 for some fancy looking 3lb shell that chews up half your pack space if you have to stow it.

 

[Weird_AL]

Soft shell isn't so much the new rage, and especially schoeler, it's been used in europe for years, we just have an issue wearing things here in the states that aren't totally bombproof.

Think of how often you've worn a gore shell or whatever in the rain and found you never really needed it, most of the time you don't. The idea is, that soft shell is usually highly water resistant (for most uses) extremelly breathable, and in schoelers case, extremely stretchy. So the idea is, and it's catching on, is that most of the time, a hard shell is unnecessary, overkill even.

But of course, in those cases where you are in a downpour, or a sever strom, gore xcr or some similar mambrane is going to work no matter what.

I have an arc'teryx gamma mx hoody, it was a toss up between that and a cloudviel ice flow schoeler piece. the cloudviel was more stretchey and breathable, but the mx has a slight wind barrier, on fast accents i notice i sweat in it, but i'll sweat out anything. I love soft shell and would recomend it to anyone.

 

[crazymama]

Maybe I've just got some crappy worn out Gore-Tex, but after hiking in it all day long in a downpour, I'm soaking wet anyway. Not sure if its rain, sweat or what.

I didn't have a clue what a softshell was until I started reading this thread. After reading and researching a little, I splurged some Christmas money on the REI Nordic Momentum pants and jacket (both Schoeller Dryskin Extreme) and less pricey than some of the others. I've been running in them and they feel great. Hope to use them for BC skiing and hiking too this winter.

The mountains had really taken a toll on my hiking clothes, I was due for some new duds.

 

[Jasonst]

I used my new Schoeller pants last week and I must say that I was pleased with their performance. The temps weren't that cold but they did the job and didn't get wet. Thanks for the advice all

 

[Mttop]

I wear a wicking layer under Marmot ATV paints on the bottom.On top I wear a wicking layer,insulation layer(100wt. fl.)EMS scholer something jacket(had it for 2 years and can't find what model it is.I also have scholer gloves(BD ICE)When I get to treeline and hear the train on top,or it starts getting reallywet(down poor) I put on my summer shell(Marmot precips)hardly ever cary my TNF mountain light parka any more.At belays or long rest periods I put my TNF nuptse jacket on over everything.Soft shells provide insulation whereas hard shells don't so my insulation layer can be less.I have used this from above freezing to -30 in the dacks and once on THE GRAND and I wear them in my +20 degree synthetic bag to 1)keep warm 2) dry them out 3) keep the weight down.Why cary insulation nad not use it when its the coldest ?

 

[Woody]

Schoeller is the way to go

I have a pair of Schoeller pants that I got from LLBean about 4 years ago. At first I was wasn't sure if I should spend the money - about $125 then - but I am glad I did. I wear these pants from late October through April. If I am hiking in the winter I just wear my mid-weight or heavy weight bergalene longjohns under them and I'm set to go. If I am above tree-line in the wind, or ice climbing I will wear my gore-tex shells over them and my legs are fine. My heavy fleece pants stay in the back of my closet.

I just bought a Schoeller Jacket from EMS (the Apollo). I've only worn it twice so far, but I think it will make my heavy fleece jacket hang in the closet with the fleece pants. While hiking below tree-line on Mt. Washington the Apollo jacket was just right. Once we got into Huntington ravine and into the wind as we started to climb, I put my gore-tex shell jacket on and I was plenty warm even while belaying (temps in the teens at the time). As soon as we got back to treeline I had to shed all the gore-tex because I was over heating. I did find that the back of the Schoeller jacket was a bit damp from where my backpack was because it was not able to breath as well due to my pack. Once I took off the pack, it dryed out fairly quickly.

 

[Jasonst]

I just bought a Schoeller Jacket from EMS (the Apollo). I've only worn it twice so far, but I think it will make my heavy fleece jacket hang in the closet with the fleece pants.

I don't understand how a thin jacket could replace a thicker fleece. How does it trap the heat so that you stay warm? I have a NF windstopper fleece and it is thin and I would never count on it for any serious insulation. How does it work on the upper body?

 

[HikerBob]

I don't understand how a thin jacket could replace a thicker fleece. How does it trap the heat so that you stay warm? I have a NF windstopper fleece and it is thin and I would never count on it for any serious insulation.

It didn't seem right to me either - but when I started winter hiking last season I set out with fleece this and fleece that and overheated badly. Being soaked from the inside out is bad news at rest times on the trail and very uncomfortable at the end of a hike when changing in a cold car.

I hiked all last winter in a very lightweight set up and had no cold problems. My EMS Windshear pants and Marmot Driclime Windshirt (not the heavier jacket) over mid-weight bergelene LJs and a Techwick shirt did the job. Fleece pants are relegated to the bottom of the pack for emergency layering. A down vest or jacket (depending on likely temps) sits higher up and adds insulation for rest stops.

I learned first hand how effective this set up was after nicking a hole in my pant legs with crampons. Within a few minutes I had a painful cold spot on my calf where the tear was. Gaiters took care of that and now they always go on early if crampons are likely to be needed.

I generate a lot of body heat and this setup traps enough to keep me warm but allows some breathability. Zippers allow further easy venting options.

Everyone is different of course, but I say "Try it!" Oh - and don't buy too small or snug a fit. Err on the loose side. This allows easier movement and traps a little more air, which I believe is a factor in their effectiveness.

Bob

 

[Warren]

I don't understand how a thin jacket could replace a thicker fleece. How does it trap the heat so that you stay warm? I have a NF windstopper fleece and it is thin and I would never count on it for any serious insulation. How does it work on the upper body?

Most soft shell type layers have a better wind resistance than fleece, so it tends to be warmer than you may think. A light soft shell is what I walk in throughout most of winter. With a windshirt on top its warm enough to take the place of a fleece layer.

 

[dolladoj]

Most soft shell type layers have a better wind resistance than fleece, so it tends to be warmer than you may think. A light soft shell is what I walk in throughout most of winter. With a windshirt on top its warm enough to take the place of a fleece layer.

Yeah I plan on testing this combo tomorrow on the slopes. Instead of my usual polyfil/polyguard insulated North face (not as puffy as the Nuptse), I'm going to wear my new Marmot Sharp Point softshell under my w/b shell.

My thoughts are that because it has windstopper and a light fleece lining, it will be nearly as warm.

 

[Weird_AL]

I don't understand how a thin jacket could replace a thicker fleece. How does it trap the heat so that you stay warm? I have a NF windstopper fleece and it is thin and I would never count on it for any serious insulation. How does it work on the upper body?

Well, there are three types of way to lose heat, conduction, convection and radiation...
If there were no wind, we could all do well staying warm with just thick fleece, but that's never the case, wind will go right through fleece and steal that heat. now under a jacket (windproof) a thicker fleece will certainly keep you warmer because of micro air pockets, this is why down is the best, it has thousands of fluffy air spaces at a light weight. hope that helps a bit.

 

[Jasonst]

EMS Apollo jacket, Schoeller WB-440 material, is on sale now for <100$. If they don't have your size, call them (as I did) and they were able to find my size in another store. Great deal!!

 

[kiteflyer]

How do you think this compares to the EMS GUNK soft shell made from
GORE WINDSTOPPER? My local EMS store only has the GUNK in stock
so I haven't been able to do a comparison.

 

[Jasonst]

Sounds like a question for the EMS techies. The Gunk is 40$ more.