Softshell conclusion-years later

[adkayaker]

X number of years ago, softshell jackets hit the marketplace as an alternative to layered hardshell-except in downpours. Brands such as Marmot and The Northface initial offerings were in the $300 to $400 price range. Schoeller branded fabrics were among several used. Years later, softshell jackets sell at LL Bean, EMS, and Dicks Sporting Goods often for under $100, with numerous fabrics, often not identified or labeled. I'm curious if those with miles on the trail wearing softshell concluded that it was an excellent layering piece, went back to hardshell, use it less than initially worn, or simply hated it. My own conclusion has been that I still enjoy it and use it for cool weather mild exersion hikes or cold weather heavy exersion hikes, layered over Capilene or Polartec . . but bring a WBB hardshell such as Marmot Precip in a pack, if any rain or heavier showers are expected duting the outing. I prefer the better breathability of the softshell I own, especially when pit-zips are used. I know however that softshell breathability varied widely, just as Gortex and its competitor WBB materials do.

 

[bignslow]

I have a schoeler dry skin soft shell, and I love it.

Before the soft shell I would typically hike in a thermal top with an additional layer of warmth (another light top, or fleece). If there was any snow on the trees falling off onto my layers it would get me wet pretty quick. Now I usually hike in a thermal top and my soft shell, the soft shell is good enough to keep me dry from the snow, but breathes well enough that I don't get soaked from the inside. I pack for the worst in winter so my 2 layer gore-tex shell is always carried but rarely worn for anything but the descent.

I will say that every manufacturer is now just slapping a "soft shell" label on any fleece with a brushed exterior which I don't really approve of since a fleece isn't the same thing as a soft shel.

 

[Paradox]

My Mammut softshell jacket (Schoeler) is only two seasons old, but I really like it. It's breathability is excellent and it keeps me dry and comfortable under a variety of conditions. I have a Loki softshell jacket (Non-Schoeler) which has several useful features namely an internal gator, mittens that are part of the sleeves, and pit zips. However, I sweat profusely when exerting myself. I only use it for commuting, or watching a football game.

I have a pair of softshell pants by Mountain Hardwear that I really like. these are only two seasons old.

 

[Tom Rankin]

My Mammut softshell jacket (Schoeler) is only two seasons old, but I really like it. It's breathability is excellent and it keeps me dry and comfortable under a variety of conditions. I have a Loki softshell jacket (Non-Schoeler) which has several useful features namely an internal gator, mittens that are part of the sleeves, and pit zips. However, I sweat profusely when exerting myself. I only use it for commuting, or watching a football game.

I have a pair of softshell pants by Mountain Hardwear that I really like. these are only two seasons old.

How long do these things take to dry if they get really wet?

 

[BobC]

I will say that every manufacturer is now just slapping a "soft shell" label on any fleece with a brushed exterior which I don't really approve of since a fleece isn't the same thing as a soft shel.

Every so often I convince myself I need a soft shell jacket but the ones I've looked at don't seem much different than fleece...so your comment definitely rings true. For almost three years of hiking, all I've used is a fleece and a rain/wind jacket, which sometimes goes over the fleece in winter. But on days when it's just wet on the trees, but not actually raining, the fleece alone gets wet too easily, and the rain/wind jacket isn't very breathable. So maybe I need to go out and look for a true soft shell sometime.

 

[jfb]

40 years ago, we had wind shells and rain shells. In the ensuing years, rain shell design improved so now the fabrics are more breathable and wind shell design improved so now the fabrics are more water repellant. I think of the term softshell as simply an insulated wind shell. I still use a wind shell and rain shell, and don't really like softshells.

 

[giggy]

Love soft-shells, rarely use a hard shell anymore, only on very windy and rainy days...

A decent softshell should be able to bead off rain and if it looks and feels like fleece - well then... I am now using the Marmot Sharp Point.

I had a few lower end ones and they were ok, but when you use a marmot, mountain hardware, mammut, etc, etc.. you realize you get what you pay for...

 

[TCD]

I've had good luck with my Schoeller Dryskin softshell garments. They offer a combination along the waterproof spectrum and the breathable spectrum that's not avaliable from other garments.

For waterproofness, if a cotton shirt is a zero and a coated rain slicker is a 10, goretex hard shell is about a 9, and the Schoeller is about a 7. A better quality water repellent wind shell is about a 4.

For breathability, with the coated slicker a zero and the cotton a 10, the gortex is about a 3 (XCR maybe 4) and the Schoeller is about a 7 again.

So for me at least, I got enough breathability (and flexibility) to be worth the moderate loss of waterproofness. As the OP said, except in a downpour.

So I think this material is truly different, is a technological advance, and is the best choice for SOME conditions.

As the second post said, I'd make sure you are getting quality. Today to walk across the parking lot to work, I'm wearing my Walmart "Soft shell" (actually labeled as such at WM), $19. It's actually fairly water repellent, but I wouldn't use it for a serious outing.

TCD

 

[RickB.]

Four in our group swear by Schoeller jackets for cold-weather hiking (we look like a Cloudveil-sponsored team). They breathe well, shed snow, block most of the wind and supply a little insulation. Frequently, we put these on at our summit/lunch stop and wear them the rest of the hike. Over fleece, they can handle tough conditions with a wide comfort range. Hooded versions are particularly useful above timberline. Schoeller pants are equally versatile.
Our experience with the Schoeller knockoffs is not as favorable. Softshell fabrics with Gore-tex wind laminate do not breathe well, nor do the cheaper rubbery-feeling softshells widely available now.

 

[slevasse]

I have the Mountain Hardwear Torch (I believe it is the torch) and I love it. Short of downpours, though I haven't been caught in one yet with this jacket, it performs great. Windproof, warm, wicking. I used to wear a North face hardshell along with a fleece and all my layers under that. Now I just have my softshell and a couple layers under it. No longer need the fleece unless it is really cold. I was really surprised at how well they work, whether I am hiking or ice climbing it just stands up. Though I will say I have a North face softshell, I can't remember which, but I rarely wear it because it doesn't have a hood. Otherwise it also is a great jacket. Both jackets are holding up much better in terms of wear and tear than any of my other jackets did.

 

[Chip]

How long do these things take to dry if they get really wet?

From the inside or outside ? Paradox and me both have the Mammut Laser (Schoeller WB-400 NanoSphere Dryskin Extreme ! ) As long as you're moving it will dump perspiration. It will shed snow and some rain, but if conditions get real snotty you'd need at least a Precip type jacket or a regular hardshell. At the end of a hike I turn mine inside out and that allows any residual perspiration to dry quickly. If you couldn't do that, a few minutes of hiking will get the fabric working again.

Agree with others that Softshell has become a buzz word and almost anything qualifies. You need something like the Schoeller fabric for it to be a "real" softshell, IMO.

 

[carole]

I was one of the skeptics when soft shell became a word but was willing to check them out. After trying and returning a few I was losing interest until I found one that fit and looked nice (and the price was great) at LL Bean. It had pit zips and resisted water quite well and was warm enough for a lot of my winter hikes. I was quite pleased with it until it became too big for me so was on the lookout for another one armed with a better idea of what I wanted. Pits zips were a must. But I wanted a hood this time. And I don’t like to spend a lot of money. So I keep my eye out for the quality and bargains usually found at TJ Maxx or Marshall’s. I had already found soft shell pants there that have seen several winters now and are still like new although they are the only pants I use in winter. Last year I found the coat I wanted (at a great price again) and am very happy. It hasn’t seen a rain drop, tunnel of wind or snow pile it can’t handle but is comfy, light weight and looks good. I have a hard shell but rarely use it unless I feel the need to have my down jacket under it – but if it is cold enough for down then rain usually isn’t an issue.

Bottom line: I like soft shells if you find the one that works for you. That and wool as a base layer and I’m a happy girl.

 

[spider solo]

I have a couple of the Mountain Hardwear soft shells that I really like and used for a season or so before I decided they weighed to much for backpacking.
Then I moved on to other fabrics (particulary the "Transition" fabrics).

I wear my soft shells almost daily in this kind of wet weather but not for hikes, just as around town kind of jackets.

 

[spencer]

I haven't read every word above but I'll offer the following observations I wish I had thought about when I bought my first one:

1. There is a whole continuum from those with little insulation value, high breathability and low water repellancy, to those that are warm, dry and not very breathable. Get one that matches your intended uses best.
2. when getting one, pay attention to the fit b/c you'll find sometimes you wear it over some things and sometimes you wear it under other things. I didn't realize I'd wear mine for as many things as I do and sometimes it's too big and sometimes it's too small. Find the happy medium.
3. Don't worry about spending more money than you think is reasonable. If you get a good one, the durability and utility to all aspects of your life is astonishing. My Marmot jacket just won't wear out, despite 4 years of skiing, climbing, hiking, cycling and paddling (includes some swimming ). It has a few frayed threads around the cuff and that's about it. In the summer I use it as my extra piece of upper body clothing. In the winter I do most everything in it.

I also have two pairs of pants but the jacket has become my favorite piece of outdoor clothing. Every so often after I wash it, I'll even wear it around town until it gets stunk up again.

 

[Hikes4fun]

Mammut Ultimate Hoody

Bought one this year--Love it! Breathes great....Keeps me warm w/ a poly Tee and a SmartWool baselayer Found it on sale later..Bought another.

 

[woodsxc]

I have three softshell pieces: MH Torch, Arc'Teryx Epsilon SV (no longer made), and TNF Apex Elixir vest. I used to have an MH Alchemy, but it got stolen late this fall.

The Alchemy was my first softshell, bought it around sophomore or junior year of high school. I got it thinking that it replace my fleece and be a little more windproof. Needless to say, it did. The waterproofing was fine for light rain or a spilled water bottle, but not for sustained showers and so my hardshell still came with me for hikes. It did exactly what I wanted it to, kept me warm and dry, and was really comfy. However, it was kinda heavy and I wanted something with a hood to use for warmer weather. The Arc'T Epsilon took care of that for me. The only time I've found its windproofing to be insufficient was at the Keyhole on Longs Peak (winds get funneled by Glacier Gorge and hit the Keyhole at 60 mph).

The Torch jacket and Elixir vest were both new additions this year. I got the vest to serve double duty as an outer layer for cold weather running and as an insulating midlayer for hiking. It works well for both and is exceptionally stretchy, a real plus for running. The Torch has been basically perfect for me. It's thin and a bit chilly if you've just got a t-shirt on, but you start to warm up as soon as you get going. Like slevasse, it has pretty much replaced my hardshell. In the winter, the Torch was my go-to jacket and the hardshell never even left my closet. Come to think of it, I haven't used my hardshell since Colorado in early August when it rained for two days straight.

Here's a quick Alchemy-Torch comparison:

Weight: Alchemy - 22 oz_____16 oz - Torch
Lining: Alchemy - Polartec_____flannel knit - Torch
Seams: Alchemy - welded*_____taped** - Torch
Cuffs: Alchemy - hidden powerstretch_____velcro tabs - Torch
Shell: Alchemy - Gore Windstopper w/ panels of Alchemy Stretch softshell_____Scuba fabric w/ Gore Windstopper laminate - Torch
*A lot of the seams were stitched.
**Taped and welded w/ flannel covering inside, so no uncomfortable spots

The Torch is the direction softshells are headed. The earlier ones were basically fleeces with some weatherproofing slapped on while newer ones are more like rainshells with increased breathability and some added insulation.

I love my softshells. The three that I currently own are all quite breathable. The Torch is almost fully waterproof and is comfortable in a wide range of temps and weather conditions.

 

[chinooktrail]

I haven't read through everyone's posts, so sorry if I repeat anything.

From what I understand, softshell vs. hardshell pieces are different in fabrics, construction and fit.

Hardshells generally are some type of 'Water Proof Breathable' (WPB, ie. EvEnt, GoreTex etc...) they have no lining, or at the most a mesh lining, they are generally taped at the seams and/or welded together. Usually they have pit zips, which should make you wonder how 'Breathable' the fabric truely is. Generally they are sized to fit over layers, usually 3 or 4.

Softshells are a different breed altogether. The major advantage is stretch. They attempt to cover all the weather conditions that a hardshell would service you for, except for a heavy rainfall. Yet they are soft, stretchy and more often than not bonded to a fleece or fleece like interior fabric. If the fabric doesn't stretch, it is not a softshell. Another advantage in my mind is that most softshells are far more quiet while wearing than a hardshell. Not a huge thing to most people, but it is to me. Another big difference is the fit of the softshel vs. the hardshell. The softshel is usually a 2nd or 3rd layer, so they are generally sized to me far more fitted. And depending on the company who is making them, and the market they are attempting to sell to, the fit may be anywhere from very athletic to couch potato. Another difference is that generally softshell fabrics are not taped at the seams, they are usually 'highly' water resistant or repelant, but not water proof.

With all of this said, I own far too many of both, and use them all.

I also own a lot of fleece, and wear it a lot, but never when hiking any longer... I have pretty much switched back to wool, the original fleece, for those layers, and am more than thrilled with the difference.

 

[Mad Townie]

My relatively inexpensive Bean's softshell has treated me well for about 3 years now, and it doesn't seem to be wearing much at all. In all but the coldest winter conditions I hike with only a wicking Tshirt under it. Very comfortable, snow and mist proof and quite breathable (although it's kinda hard for me to tell because I sweat a lot when moving). It's also pretty windproof, much more so than a regular heavyweight fleece.

The two things it's missing are pit zips (but see Chinooktrail's comment about breathability) and a hood. The hood would be a very nice addition, since there are times when I wear a light hardshell over it just to have the hood. The softshell is much quieter in the woods and is quite a bit warmer than just a hardshell, which is great for brief stops along the trail in the winter. The other thing I like is that it doesn't feel clammy against bare skin.

I don't carry it in the summer because it weighs a bit more than a regular fleece. I carry a hardshell for rain, and the fleece works well under it for warmth. Yes, I'd buy another.

 

[Silverfox]

I have a couple of the Mountain Hardwear soft shells that I really like and used for a season or so before I decided they weighed to much for backpacking.
Then I moved on to other fabrics (particulary the "Transition" fabrics).

I wear my soft shells almost daily in this kind of wet weather but not for hikes, just as around town kind of jackets.

Mountain Hardware Transition fabric..I think that is the elfin fabric used on Lord of the Rings..Truely remarkable stuff..now available to the general public... I have several pieces..all washed mutliple times..they show no wear..do not carry odor..amazing

My everyday jacket around town is Mountain Hardware conduit softshell..not for heavy down pour but anything else

 

[chinooktrail]

Found a decent write up about what 'soft shells' are, and are not. Just in case anyone was still interested.

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/clothing+softshell.html

Keep in mind, it is through REI, and has their own spin.