Spur Paths And The "No Camping Within 200' Of Trail" Rule

[DayTrip]

I noticed this weekend hiking Davis Path that the spur path for Stairs Mountain had 3-4 tent sites right at the summit just 50-100' from the cliff and right off the trail. The spur trail even had a little tent sign indicating camping available. The AMC Guide makes no mention of tent sites in this area. Normally an area like that would be a restricted use area.

That got me thinking of other sites I have seen right off the trail that were on spur paths (such as Mt Hight, an area I am very interested in camping near). So my question is this: are spur paths NOT considered part of the main trail and thus available as camp sites as long as they are 200' away from designated main trail? In other words is walking down the spur path just like walking into the woods for camping rule purposes? Or are people just flagrantly disregarding the rules for these prime spots?

Curious to get others interpretations of this or reference to anything that clarifies.

 

[Lefty E]

If you look at the beginning of each section of the WMG, under the camping section, the information states camping is allowed at "designated" sites...which is usually a little wooden tent sign with an arrow (think lower Davis Path right before you start the climb)..Stairs is a site...there are plenty of others around too if you know where they are...Mt. Hight of course is on a main trail, the Carter Moriah Trail, and is .6 away from Zeta Pass (no camping .25 miles from Zeta Pass) so in my opinion you should be able to camp 200 feet off of the trail (but not above treeline which is standard I guess)...so any spur trail would be considered a trail and one could camp 200 feet off of it...but I hope other members would confirm the info I am putting out there!! thanks

 

[David Metsky]

Spur trails are trails, for the purpose of the rules. But unless you are in the federally declared Wilderness Area or on specific trails, the 200' rule doesn't apply.

 

[Lefty E]

Spur trails are trails, for the purpose of the rules. But unless you are in the federally declared Wilderness Area or on specific trails, the 200' rule doesn't apply.

Thanks for clarifying this Dave, I always get confused...thought one had to be 200 feet off of any trail, but I guess it's just specific trails.....

 

[peakbagger]

Of course, the WMNF has the right to deem otherwise legal areas as no camping areas, like the ones on the west side of the ridgeline north of the Liberty Springs campsite. These are not necessarily listed anywhere for someone to check in advance but luckily there does not appear to be lot of them.

 

[TCD]

Same thing in the ADKs. The "at large camping" rule is 150' from road, trail, or body of water. But there are numerous "designated campsite" exceptions, and also quite a few "no camping here" exceptions the other way. It can be hard to find a complete list of these for planning purposes. It's actually a pretty good argument for hammock camping; you don't need nearly as much of a "campsite" for that. I haven't tried that yet, but maybe this year...

 

[GrayBear]

I've been looking all over the Web and even called the AMC and WMNF to see if there was a listing of these designated tent sites without a name. No luck. It's strange, if I plot a route with the AMC wmgonline it mentions the tent site near Smarts but it's not in the WMG book. Does anyone know of listing anywhere?

 

[David Metsky]

Does anyone know of listing anywhere?

They change (not often, but often enough) that they aren't included in the maps or guidebooks. They Great Gulf sites used to be on the Presidential map but they've been removed. There is a difference between an established permanent tentsite like the one on Smarts and these designated Wilderness campsites. There are sites on the Great Gulf Trail, Isolation Trail, Davis Path, and probably some others that I'm not familiar with.

 

[DayTrip]

Spur trails are trails, for the purpose of the rules. But unless you are in the federally declared Wilderness Area or on specific trails, the 200' rule doesn't apply.

So I camp wherever and do whatever I want provided I am not within range of any of the conditions listed in the WMNF brochure (designated rivers, roads, wilderness areas, etc)? That makes sense and explains so many of the sites you see hiking around.

I wish the brochure was worded differently. They should say "You can do x, y and z unless one of the following conditions exists". I always thought the 200' rule applied anywhere in the WMNF. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DayTrip]

Of course, the WMNF has the right to deem otherwise legal areas as no camping areas, like the ones on the west side of the ridgeline north of the Liberty Springs campsite. These are not necessarily listed anywhere for someone to check in advance but luckily there does not appear to be lot of them.

So stupid question but if there is no official list of these sites and they make changes to their status from time to time how does one know they are using an "illegal" site? Does a ranger just swing by at sunset and shine a flashlight in your face after you've set everything up and tell you to scram? Some of these sites are clearly very heavily used and absent a sign saying otherwise you'd think they were legit or they wouldn't have gotten so worn out.

 

[peakbagger]

The forest service put up signs and usually brushes in the spots to make them less usable. I expect the Liberty caretaker keeps an eye on spots I mentioned previously. I would expect theses signs get torn down on occasion. The former overflow spot near the Guyot spur didnt have a sign but had about 4' deep of dead trees piled on top of it. I expect if someone gets ticketed, the FS assumes that few will take the time to contest it.

 

[JCarter]

I noticed this weekend hiking Davis Path that the spur path for Stairs Mountain had 3-4 tent sites right at the summit just 50-100' from the cliff and right off the trail. The spur trail even had a little tent sign indicating camping available. The AMC Guide makes no mention of tent sites in this area. Normally an area like that would be a restricted use area.

That got me thinking of other sites I have seen right off the trail that were on spur paths (such as Mt Hight, an area I am very interested in camping near). So my question is this: are spur paths NOT considered part of the main trail and thus available as camp sites as long as they are 200' away from designated main trail? In other words is walking down the spur path just like walking into the woods for camping rule purposes? Or are people just flagrantly disregarding the rules for these prime spots?

Curious to get others interpretations of this or reference to anything that clarifies.

That is a designated campsite within the Dry River Wilderness. And an awesome one at that. There aren't very many on the Davis path. There is one north of isolation near the davis path/isolation trail east, and there is one just off the davis path near the southern end (at the county boundary, if you look at the topos). People also camp on the summit of Resolution, which is legit as long as you are 200 ft from the official trail (which passes about 700 ft southwest of the summit)

Note that the '200 ft from trails' regulation in the Wilderness applies only to officially designated trails. Some long-standing spurs to viewpoints and summits aren't "real". You need to look at the maps in the Wilderness Management Plan. (In fact, it's not clear if the spur to Stairs is actually 'official', I'd have to go download the FMP again and look at it. The trail does NOT appear in the trail database). But it's designated, so you're good.

The '200 ft from trail' rule in the Leave No Trace guidelines is a good idea, but isn't as absolute as the Wilderness rule (i.e., they can't write you a ticket for it). If the choice is between a heavily impacted spot less than 200 ft, and a pristine spot more than 200, I'd probably choose to concentrate my impact on the previously used site. (But don't do this in a designated Wilderness)

 

[alexmtn]

Spur trails are trails, for the purpose of the rules. But unless you are in the federally declared Wilderness Area or on specific trails, the 200' rule doesn't apply.

To the above, I would add that it's not really wilderness areas, but rather Forest Protection Areas (wilderness areas are included in these) that observe the general no camping rule. FPA's are:

1) any above tree line area (trees <8' tall) with <2' of snow

2) 1/4-mile circles around trailheads, huts, campsites, roads, and other developed overnight facilities

3) Designated trails and bodies of water; while you should check with the FS for the latest status (they change from year to year), the "Camping" section of each WMG chapter lists them. For example, in the Franconia/Twins/Willey region in 2011:
- Old Bridle Path*
- Falling Waters Trail*
- Liberty Springs Trail*
- Black Pond
- E Branch R. from Kanc to FF
- any trail in the Pemi Wilderness

LNT principles go above and beyond these restrictions, but as already observed are not ticketable, however morally offensive, when not followed.

*The State Park sections of these trails have more draconian restrictions.

Alex

 

[JCarter]

Just to recap -- in the WMNF this is the One True Rule Book.

Notice that there is one page of "Leave No Trace is Good". That's the "do this or you're a bad person" guidelines, as opposed to "regulations". And the LNT 200 foot trail & water restriction is weasely: "Camp at sites that have already been heavily impacted (but be sure it’s a legal site), OR 200 feet from trails and water sources." The "legal site" part is covered on the next page. The OR says it's OK to camp where somebody else already messed it up unless specifically restricted.

Then there's a page of specific restrictions that includes the list in the prior post (1/4 mile FPAs, plus specific trails and bodies of water outside the Wilderness that have 200' exclusion zones). Then there's the Wilderness restrictions (some of the named items in the previous list are also in Wilderness areas, or on the border), which can be summed up as '200 ft from any trail except at designated sites'. There is NOT a general 200 ft exclusion from water in the Wilderness (though the East Branch of the Pemi is excluded, which is a big PITA), just the above LNT guidelines not to screw things up.

Note that some of the 1/4 mile exclusion areas contain designated campsites (Haystack Rd, Old Cherry Mountain Rd, North/South Gale River Rd, Sawyer Pond, Unknown Pond, Franconia Brook East Tentsite).

I have seen people claim in other venues that there is 1/4 mile exclusion around summits. I've not found anything to back that up in any recent (since 2008) published regulations (though the Alpine Zone exclusion does take out a fair number of summits, this zone is marked on the AMC and most other hiking maps)

As alexmtn notes, there are State Parks in both Franconia Notch and Crawford Notch. WMNF rules don't apply in those regions -- camping is prohibited everywhere except at the campgrounds (Lafayette Place Campground and Dry River Campground)

You also need to make sure you're actually in the WMNF. Many of the trailheads are on private land, and some trails cross private land. Not all are obviously clearly marked on the ground.

If you go to the WMNF website, you can download a pile of GIS Data, and load it into ArcGIS and spend all your rainy days browsing maps. This includes all the trails, and there is an "ownership" layer (there are inholdings inside the NF boundary that aren't owned by the WMNF). Note that parts of the "roads" database is a work of historical fiction. What is missing from this is the location of designated campsites in the Wilderness. The only way I've found to get these is by calling the Ranger station. Before you waste your dime, there are NO designated campsites in the Pemigewasset Wilderness. There are a few in the Dry River and Great Gulf, I'm less familiar with the others.

 

[DayTrip]

Yah well that clears it all up.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I have often thought of creating a map that shows legal camping areas per the USFS pamphlet. I know it does not help you, but you will know the good spots after your first time through the area.

 

[David Metsky]

I have often thought of creating a map that shows legal camping areas per the USFS pamphlet.

IMO, the rules really aren't that hard to follow. The problem is knowing where you are at times (in or out of the Wilderness Area or FPA/RUA). If I'm looking to camp I just make sure my intended target area is no where near a line. And you just need to be aware of spot closures - either via signs or if sites are brushed in.

The designated Wilderness Campsites is another problem. They have been mapped, but the USFS periodically closes some and opens new ones so any list/map is only as good as the last time they've been updated.

 

[Will]

... you just need to be aware of spot closures - either via signs or if sites are brushed in

Overzealous individuals, including caretakers, brush in sites they personally don't approve of; no legal significance.

 

[peakbagger]

Spot closures are my rant point. Some appear to be overzealous actions, with no statutory backing while some are backed up by FS authority and these actions are not listed in any publicly accessible location. Thus someone can plan to camp at a legal spot and then discover that the FS has done a spot closure. This is what was done on the west side of the ridgeline north of Liberty Springs junction last year.

As for brushing in areas inside a restricted use zone such as around a campground, my belief is that authority has been delegated to AMC to manage it as they see fit and that includes campsite restoration.

 

[MichaelJ]

Old logging roads and skidder paths, however, are not trails. So for example if you want to camp someplace in a Wilderness Area, and along the trail you cross an old logging road, you have to walk along it 200' from the trail, but then you can set up right there on the old road.