What about Mt. Major? I bet it rates right up there.
State to study Mt Washington Summit Capacity
- Thread starter peakbagger
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Size of the peak matters I would think as well. Washington can roll their visitors over much quicker due to the access types. But, also, its spread out over a much larger area than Monadnock.
Is it easier to hide 300k visitors than it is 100k visitors with a massive (for NH) peak like Washington?
Is it easier to hide 300k visitors than it is 100k visitors with a massive (for NH) peak like Washington?
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
New article on summit issues
http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20180926/NEWS07/180929668/-1/newhampshire03
http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20180926/NEWS07/180929668/-1/newhampshire03
SpencerVT
Member
I am sure there are huge numbers of climbers on Monadnock that aren't counted in their yearly estimates. The Monadnock Wikipedia has some estimates about it being among the most climbed mountains in the world.
nartreb
Well-known member
Sigh.... one more time, then I'll stop before I become "that crank on VFTT who thinks Monadnock isn't the most-climbed mountain in the world, Mt Washington doesn't have the world's worst weather, and that 'Live Free or Die' won't get you out of a speeding ticket".
It's easy for rangers to estimate the numbers of people on a mountain like Monadnock: look at the parking lots. (Note: the rangers also stand on the summit and do actual counts, using clickers like you see at theaters, to help them calibrate their estimates. They also do traffic counts on the major trails.) Monadnock's main lots are full every summer weekend, with a long line of cars waiting to park stretching way up the entrance road, and they always contain a bunch of buses. The buses make a huge difference: a bus has ten times the capacity of a car, and is more likely to be full. The trails that start outside the park, like Pumpelly, are a rounding error, because they have very little parking, and no room at all for buses. Off-season visitors might be underestimated too, but not enough to matter. Your lone hiker at odd hours in the winter, who manages to escape the notice of the rangers while visiting every day all winter long, equals two busloads.
So when the park service says the estimate is around 100,000, I believe them. I've seen similar numbers for other regionally-known peaks, like Ben Nevis, that are a couple hours from a decent-sized city. But there's no place in New Hampshire that's going to have any chance at being #1 in the world. New England doesn't have enough population to compete. Fuji is just an hour from Tokyo, and it only sees 300,000 hikers a year. Your winner is going to be very close to major infrastructure, and will see something like a million visitors a year. Which one you choose will depend entirely on your minimum height/rise/prominence criteria, and how you account for roads and cable cars. (I'd argue you subtract ridership, and count foot traffic. Another option is you count the top of the road/cable as the bottom of the mountain, and use that in your rise criterion. The latter approach would give Mt Washington a rise of zero.) You can probably come up with a criterion that allows Monadnock while excluding the dozens of vastly more popular mountains in China, Korea, etc, but you'd have to work pretty hard. I do not accept "is considered a holy mountain" as a valid criterion for excluding a peak.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
The cog just set a record for the most folks sent up the mountain in single day of their history
https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_a465d29e-ccaa-11e8-9539-cb0fcd082219.html
This is one of the major reasons why the summit capacity has to be researched and plans need to be put in place to either limit use, spread it out or expand the facilities. The Cog owner has stated that he has plans to incorporate new switches and sidings and possibly a second track to further increase the capacity to move more guests up the mountain via the cog. These are not in place yet so expect this record will not be long standing.
Given the level of rancor between the cog owner and the rest of the commission I don't see a voluntary collaborative approach happening. I expect the state is going to have to study the issue and impose a solution.
https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_a465d29e-ccaa-11e8-9539-cb0fcd082219.html
This is one of the major reasons why the summit capacity has to be researched and plans need to be put in place to either limit use, spread it out or expand the facilities. The Cog owner has stated that he has plans to incorporate new switches and sidings and possibly a second track to further increase the capacity to move more guests up the mountain via the cog. These are not in place yet so expect this record will not be long standing.
Given the level of rancor between the cog owner and the rest of the commission I don't see a voluntary collaborative approach happening. I expect the state is going to have to study the issue and impose a solution.
Mike P.
Well-known member
I will ask the questions because I don't know the answers. Can the Cog just add more sidings or do they have to ask for some type of zoning or environmental approval. Can the State, as the owner of the State Park that encompasses the summit area, say the Cog is not allowed to enter the State Park at all if push comes to shove? Since the AT is a National Corridor, you have state, federal and private property issues, who has the final top say?
Luckily, the majority of the guest that come up by road or train do little more than stand in line for a summit picture, walk on the observation deck, get a bumper sticker, a T-shirt or sweatshirt if they forgot warm clothes and a bite to eat. Luckily, the rockpile is not an alpine meadow or it would be trampled in all directions, you can't just meander on the rocks. Few who travel the road or cog venture to the top of the ravines or down to Lakes.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Can the Cog just add more sidings or do they have to ask for some type of zoning or environmental approval.
They own the land so its like any other business. It most likely they would need county approval, but recently the county elected not to require approval for a minor expansion of use, they have already made alterations to the track to support usage without permitting so its not clear if and when the county steps in.
Can the State, as the owner of the State Park that encompasses the summit area, say the Cog is not allowed to enter the State Park at all if push comes to shove?Ownership and rights to the summit area are "complicated" with many overlapping rights. The cog claims to have the right to the actual summit but there are other opinions that its based on a dubious title chain. Its definitely a throw it to the court and see what comes out
Since the AT is a National Corridor, you have state, federal and private property issues, who has the final top say? The AT is a right of way more than owned "in fee". It crosses many different state and local properties and even some private property protected by easements, The ATs opinion is just a small part of the big legal conundrum, the state of NH in the past has acted as the final manager with major input from the MT Washington Commission which is composed of all the parties that have interest in the summit. The commission had for years acted collaboratively but of late like national politics, one party, the Cog is acting unilaterally.
The current issue is at times the summit building is full to the point where the number of people on the summit exceed the capacity of the summit building and more importantly the water supply and the wastewater disposal system. Many folks who visit the summit also use the rest rooms and the systems associated with the rest rooms has limited capacity. This apparently is particularly an issue on days where the outdoor conditions are nasty so folks want or need to stand indoors.
They own the land so its like any other business. It most likely they would need county approval, but recently the county elected not to require approval for a minor expansion of use, they have already made alterations to the track to support usage without permitting so its not clear if and when the county steps in.
Can the State, as the owner of the State Park that encompasses the summit area, say the Cog is not allowed to enter the State Park at all if push comes to shove?Ownership and rights to the summit area are "complicated" with many overlapping rights. The cog claims to have the right to the actual summit but there are other opinions that its based on a dubious title chain. Its definitely a throw it to the court and see what comes out
Since the AT is a National Corridor, you have state, federal and private property issues, who has the final top say? The AT is a right of way more than owned "in fee". It crosses many different state and local properties and even some private property protected by easements, The ATs opinion is just a small part of the big legal conundrum, the state of NH in the past has acted as the final manager with major input from the MT Washington Commission which is composed of all the parties that have interest in the summit. The commission had for years acted collaboratively but of late like national politics, one party, the Cog is acting unilaterally.
The current issue is at times the summit building is full to the point where the number of people on the summit exceed the capacity of the summit building and more importantly the water supply and the wastewater disposal system. Many folks who visit the summit also use the rest rooms and the systems associated with the rest rooms has limited capacity. This apparently is particularly an issue on days where the outdoor conditions are nasty so folks want or need to stand indoors.
Salty
Active member
2100 people! Yowzah. According to Wiki, each car holds 70 people, so 30 trips. Even if they operated as early as 7:30 up to 5:30, that's 3 trains an hour or 210 people on the summit at any given time just from the Cog. Wish I knew what the Auto Road was doing for business at the same time.
ChrisB
Well-known member
Presby Scores Again!!
You can say what you ant about Wayne Presby, but he does know how to make lemon aid out of a lemon! In this case happy riders who had to transfer trains and live with a four hour delay!
Well done Wayne!
cb
You can say what you ant about Wayne Presby, but he does know how to make lemon aid out of a lemon! In this case happy riders who had to transfer trains and live with a four hour delay!
Well done Wayne!
cb
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
On nice weekends in the fall, there is usually a mile plus line on RT 16 waiting to turn into the autoroad in either direction. The quickly end up filling the parking lot at top and they have to hold cars back until enough leave the top to allow more up. The only way the autoroad can increase volume is send up more vans.
CaptCaper
Active member
Everyone was crazy busy...Trumps economy. Car's were parked up to and into Boise Rock in Franconia Notch..
Ha..good one... There are a lot of folks that would pay a huge amount for an adventure like that.. That was a bonus for those folks. Like I said Presby has class. He should of designed the new Glen House.
On a side note most trains aren't full at all. I hiked down to EAC's rock July 4th and watched many cars coming up near empty.
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If you think that’s good wait until you see the Craft Beers he is going to have on tap once he opens the Hotel.
Can we remember the rules about politics, please? Topics are OK, but there are a few spots here cheering or deriding the current administration which are at least toes-are-over-the-politics-line.
Thanks,
Tim
Thanks,
Tim
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CaptCaper
Active member
I'll never see the Craft Beers what ever they are.. one it would be out of my budget to stay there...two I don't drink. Don't like Hotels either.. like my RV better.
I was more alluding to stopping in on the way by for a refreshment. At least then I would know my excretions would also be piped out rather than being dropped in a barrel from a helicopter.
Raven
Well-known member
I would guess the Auto Road's busiest day is the Road Race. 1200 runners plus drivers and they open the road for cars at 12:00 as the race ends.
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In general, you can assume a craft beer comes from smaller/local operations. They tend to have more variety because they can do more interesting things in smaller batches, but they also tend to cost more due to the lack of economies of scale. If Amtrak is Budweiser, then the Cog would be a craft brewer.
DayTrip
Well-known member
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Don't automatically assume that craft beer is expensive beer. Many of the local breweries make great beers that are not at all expensive, Moat Mtn and Woodstock being a couple of examples. It's not a $4 Bud Light, but why would you want to pay $4 for a glass of dishwater anyway?
Stan
Well-known member
I got a kick out of the last sentence of the woman's account of the incident, "Made for a long day, but so happy to be alive. What an adventure!" How many hiking or paddling trips end with that sentiment!
