the evolution of "herd paths"

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thuja

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This issue of how "herd paths" or "way trails" come into existence is worth some thought. It's clear that it's all about concentrating usage. Around here, in western WA, I contend that except in cases where natural travel routes are highly confined, as, for example, on a ridgeline, bushwhacking, because it is dispersed, does not create "way trails" or "herd paths" in forested or brushy terrain. To get a "way trail" somebody has to encourage use concentration by doing some lopping or flagging. Detailed off-trail route descriptions in guidebooks are also highly conducive to use concentration; one could say that the act of promoting or naming or defining a particular off-trail route is pretty much the same thing as announcing to the world that you want a trail there. Once you've got a defined, followable tread, of course, it draws usage and becomes more and more obvious.

I have seen enough "way trails" spring into existence around here to really dislike it. Unless you experience both the "before" and the "after" it's hard to appreciate the degree to which such informal trails draw people and facilitate usage, and destroy wildness. It is, after all, a whole lot easier, both physically and mentally, to follow a "way trail" than to shoulder the burden of making your own way in the woods. Thus these arguments one often hears about how improving or formalizing a trail lessens resource damage are incomplete. The increased number of people who will go there, thanks to greater ease and speed, and lower skill requirements, also need to be factored in, as an environmental cost.

My own personal rule about off-trail travel, is I do not publicize routes. I do not post trip reports or maps on the web. If you can't find your own route up a mountain, you probably shouldn't be bushwhacking or travelling autonomously. I certainly do not brush, clear, or flag my travel routes in any way, and I remove such flagging when I find it. "Leave no trace" means what it says. Insofar as possible, nobody should know you've been there. Bringing your handy flagging tape and brush loppers to "help out" the next person constitutes resource destruction. The next time you travel a particularly neat off-trail route, or one you are proud of in some way, do something novel: shut up about it. This is particularly true nowdays, in the age of the Web, very well suited for spreading information amongst small cults, like model train fanciers, neo-nazis, peak-baggers, and bushwhackers. It's the best thing you can do to keep that place the way you experienced it, for the next person who happens to wander that way. I would also say that the parties most guilty of route creation around here are those who are not really into off-trail travel or bushwhacking, as a means of exploring wild places or developing some intimacy with the natural landscape, but have some external objective like a fishing site or a summit (peak-baggers and climbers) and the stuff in between the car and this objective is in some sense just an obstacle.

Now, although I am very fond of the Adirondacks (less so the Whites) I know they are considerably more developed, and under considerably greater recreational pressure, than the Olympics or N Cascades out here , so it seems that these precepts should be doubly applicable in the NE. It seems to me that the whole myth of the "trailless peaks" serves to confuse many people in the Adirondacks, to the point where they equate travel on way trails with bushwhacking, which it ain't, which they'd
know, if they'd ever done it.
 
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Welcome to VFTT.......Interesting post, thought provoking and well said. I'm not sure if I agree with everyone of your points but it is very well written. I would say that I also don't care much for herd paths in general but do see their place if the mountain has fragile areas that should be avoided, making it then desirable to concentrate use. I guess my point of view would depend on the mountains particulars......

thuja said:
If you can't find your own route up a mountain, you probably shouldn't be bushwhacking or travelling autonomously.

I would tend to agree with this, of course we all have to start somewhere..... I'm sure we've all made mistakes in route finding which is how we learn....herd paths might help in the progression to true off trail travel.

Hopefully this thread and discussion will stay interesting and constructive, as opposed to another recent thread on bushwacking :eek: :rolleyes:
 
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Bushwhacking is an art that shouldn't be messed with. Cutting trails is a whole other topic. The woods and the mountains are ours, we should respect, but know how to use them. Remember, if no one knows about the wilderness, no one knows to respect them. I HAVE NOT GONE WHACK'N YET BUT HOPE TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE TO KNOW THE FULL WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE!!! :cool: :p
 
Here in the North East after hike all the 4k's in New England we have the Highest Hundred. Most of these mountians are "Trailless", but because the AMC has an unoffical (?) trail guide to hiking them some have developed into "Herd Paths". You are not supposed to mark them or your path in as an aid out in any way, nor is clearing allowed. Penalties include the AMC not recognizing your accomplishments and not getting your "Stink'n Badge", for those who seek them.
 
herd paths

guess what,most of the herd path's I've been on are just that,animal herd paths.Moose create herd path's that are as worn as human path's.Hunters and hikers find them and use them.Next time you see a moose tell em to stop find dead on paths to many a summit!!! ;) ;)
 
Lnt

I once was reading something about leave no trace and it mentioned how a group of 11 people (or maybe it was 15) walking in a straight line would leave sign of a trail.

I guess it means that 11 (or 15) people could create a trail just by walking in a straight line. I guess this says you should bushwack in small groups and if you must hike in not so small groups stagger the line not to create a path.
 
BrentD22 said:
I once was reading something about leave no trace and it mentioned how a group of 11 people (or maybe it was 15) walking in a straight line would leave sign of a trail.

I guess it means that 11 (or 15) people could create a trail just by walking in a straight line. I guess this says you should bushwack in small groups and if you must hike in not so small groups stagger the line not to create a path.

Not necessarily. While that many people might leave a noticeable trail, it could very well be a temporary trail. Like walking thru a meadow when it's wet, you will trample some grass, but it may not create a lasting path.

I think it's the constant use that kills the vegetation and leaves bare spots which eventually turn into trails. Mendon is a perfect example right now. There are faint herd paths all over the place, and a few very well defined ones. Eventually, a well-defined route might exist.

The Catskill 3500 Club does limit its hikes to 12 or less when going off trail.
 
Speaking of herd paths and stuff, even in the ADKs, I find myself at least getting a bearing to the summit on many bushwacks. When Matt and I did Cliff and Redfield, we read on here and asked for suggestions before our trip, read other trip reports here and elsewhere and gathered a bunch of 411 about the herdpath. Still, I found myself at Uphill Brook getting a bearing to the summit on Cliff and also on Redfield before heading out. I still would rather have a rough idea of where the herd path goes in relationship to the summit. I wonder how many other hikers in the ADKs do this? Do the more experienced ADK hikers do this? I'm used to it by doing a lot of catskills bushwacks.

I even found myself on bushwacking the santanonis the paths to Couchy and Santanoni using my compass to verify that we were on the right herdpath. Which is why it confuses me why some hikers seem to take the wrong herdpath when trying to get to Couch or Santanoni? Using the compass would tell you pretty much which herdpath is which and would also be more reassuring if you somehow got off the herdpath by accident. I can tell you Matt and I got off the herdpath going back to Uphill brook leanto from Cliff and felt good that at least we had a rough idea where to head since we had a rough idea of where the herdpath went. Not all herdpaths are straight and direct.

Anyway, when a bunch of us are bushwacking in the catskills, I don't always have to follow the person in the lead (typically me, but not always) and will somewhat fan out if the terrain allows. Of course, going through thick spruce and stuff, we all tend to follow the point but if the woods are open, I tend to enjoy just keeping an eye out on each other but not necessarily following the same exact path.

Jay
 
Tom Rankin said:
The Catskill 3500 Club does limit its hikes to 12 or less when going off trail.

I think groups like the AMC, Catskill 3500 Club, RMC, and also the WMNF limit group sizes is because of the belief that larger groups walking off trail will leave a trace. Not a trail, but a trace.

I only posted that because I've read it before and thought maybe it would be useful info.
 
hmmmm, Interesting thoughts. I think you have touched on an important issue, but the unfortunate interlacing of what I detected as a narcissistic mindset detracted from the message for me. Please understand, I mean no personal criticism and am not looking for confrontation, but (IMO) entitlement to explore public lands does not just extend to the 1st or 2nd guy that comes along and climbs peak X. It also extends to the 100th or 200th as well. Your points that significant -LEAVE NO TRACE- responsibility is certainly germaine to bushwhacking and are well formed and incredibly potent to consider.

However, interjecting statemnts like

Unless you experience both the "before" and the "after" it's hard to appreciate the degree to which such informal trails draw people and facilitate usage, and destroy wildness.

My own personal rule about off-trail travel, is I do not publicize routes. I do not post trip reports or maps on the web. If you can't find your own route up a mountain, you probably shouldn't be bushwhacking or traveling autonomously.

The next time you travel a particularly neat off-trail route, or one you are proud of in some way, do something novel: shut up about it. This is particularly true nowdays, in the age of the Web, very well suited for spreading information amongst small cults, like model train fanciers, neo-nazis, peak-baggers, and bushwhackers. It's the best thing you can do to keep that place the way you experienced it, for the next person who happens to wander that way.

I may be wrong (perhaps it was the neo-nazi reference), but the tone seem to imply that your world view is the only responsible way in which to enjoy off route travel, which I do not particularly agree with. I make attempts not to publicly publish unknown routes/peaks and agree to SOME things you say. HOWEVER, I see no reason to be compelled to "shut up" about places I've been or things I've seen. Nor do I think it reasonable to make that determination for others. And to to say it on a FORUM dedicated to sharing backcountry NE information makes me wonder if I'm being baited.....

In general, the farther away from the list (46) I get, the less and less "way paths" I discover, despite the fact that several of those routes were privatly given to me by others who went the same "general" way. I suppose, within the logic you cite, one could make same arguments (you make) against the Colvins, Nyes, Marshalls and old Man Phelps's (or any other pioneer explorer of the past for that matter), that they themselves should have "shut up" about routes and peaks way back when. Personally, I'm thankful that they did not and millions of the rest of us, including you I suspect at one time, have been inspired and able to take GREAT joy and a tremendous spiritual satisfaction in the discovery of the "Great Adirondack Woods" (and other places).

So what I will choose to take from your message is that, IF I choose to accept my right to explore the wild places in a manner of my choosing (off trail), I must also accept the greater personal responsibility of respecting LNT, walking lightly and encouraging others like me to do the same in their travel so that those that follow us, will find and experience the same things.

In that case, I accept :)
 
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I don't believe there is an evolution of herd paths. Charles Darwin's trail evolution theory has it all wrong. All herd paths were created by a higher power.
 
Leave The Flagging Alone

thuja said:
I certainly do not brush, clear, or flag my travel routes in any way, and I remove such flagging when I find it.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons why one might encounter flagging when off trail including:
+ Boundary marker (leased USFS lands like woodlots and sugarbushes)
+ Established backcountry skiing or XC trail marker
+ Non-publcized USFS routes (e.g. to overflow camping spots)

Unless you are working in direct concert with the land manager, I think it is impossible to judge if flaggings are legitimate or not. A safer, less destructive approach would be to note the location and contact the appropriate land manager.
 
dave.m:

You comments might be appropriate for NE, but in the Adirondacks and Catskills, the Forest Service doesn't come into play.

On public land in NYS, flagging is not acceptable other than when a legitimate trail crew is using them to reroute a path or trail. Otherwise only DEC can mark a route.
On private land, the owners can do as they want. When we're bushwacking on ADK100 peaks, many of us "collect" flagging where its obvious the "Tom Sawyer" approach is being used to locate a way up and back down a trailless peak. Its also pretty obvious when its the landowner legitimately marking a hunting path or surveyor's boundaries.
Over here, some backcountry/wilderness/slide skiiers don't use tape, they cut saplings and sidecut skiroutes to favorite spots. Those are a tad harder to correct.
 
Thuja, I get the distinct impression you have an axe to grind but are barking up the wrong forum.

thuja said:
The next time you travel a particularly neat off-trail route, or one you are proud of in some way, do something novel: shut up about it.

This is a discussion forum. I am an active member because I like to share and discuss the trips I do with like minded individuals. I have learned a lot from doing so and it has enhanced my outdoor life.
OTOH if you prefer to not post your experiences I certainly won't stop you.

thuja said:
It seems to me that the whole myth of the "trailless peaks" serves to confuse many people in the Adirondacks, to the point where they equate travel on way trails with bushwhacking, which it ain't, which they'd
know, if they'd ever done it.
There is no myth or confusion. Everybody knows there are well defined paths to the "trailless" high peaks. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the new terminology is: minimum maintenace path.
 
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BrentD22 said:
I once was reading something about leave no trace and it mentioned how a group of 11 people (or maybe it was 15) walking in a straight line would leave sign of a trail.
Depends on the surface. On bare rock (no lichens), many more than 15 could pass without leaving an obvious trace. On the cryptobiotic soils of the Southwest, the passage of a single individual could be very obvious for many years.

Doug
 
giggy said:
sounds kind of elitist - I can trudge through the woods - but nobody else can.

Hmmm, I must have missed that part of the post......... I can't seem to find where they tell others not to hike....

I think it's important to not instantly discount or dismiss posts we don't agree with, especially when the poster has obviously put a lot of thought into them...... the post may sound elitist at times, but if it provokes thought it's a good thing, IMHO. I think their post is a very well written rant and I was impressed with it even though I might not agree with a lot of it.

as far as the neo-nazi reference goes - Having had encounters with a neo-nazi hiker on the AMC's M+M board (the uproar/reaction they set off was the main reason the board got shut down) - I know that the web is used for every purpose under the sun and you can encounter all sorts of people on it just like you can a busy street in NYC.

I don't think Thuja is comparing or equating bushwackers, peakbaggers, and model train fanciers to neo-nazis, are you, Thuja? My take on what they are saying is that the web and its instantaneous distribution of information can be both a good and bad thing and that you should be careful what you do with it.......

I like how Tim (Mavs00) and Jay H responded to Thuja's post. What they said is also very valid and thought provoking. I like to see this kind of dialogue on VFTT because I learn from it......
 
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Oh, that flagging . . .!

dave.m said:
. . . Unless you are working in direct concert with the land manager, I think it is impossible to judge if flaggings are legitimate or not. A safer, less destructive approach would be to note the location and contact the appropriate land manager.

This is the common sense rule on flagging that should guide, wherever we are, since most of us are not blessed with telepathic powers.

G.
 
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