The forgotton gear: life insurance

[spencer]

I'm looking for some advice on life insurance for those who play in the mountains.

Virtually all questionaires I've seen so far ask if you mountain/rock climb. There are very blurry lines between hiking and mountain climbing and I'm looking for thoughts from those of you that tend toward the mountain climbing end of the spectrum.

For instance, questions that arise include:

How high?
Where?
On route?
Do you use ropes?
How often?
Internationally?
# of years experience?

I can answer all those truthfully and come up with the same category as Anatoli Boukreev, even though I clearly do not have the same risk factor.

The people that ask these questions do not typically understand anything about the subject. I'm looking for input from those of you that mountain climb (ropes, ice, snow, etc. - NOT hiking) and have bought life insurance. Do you have suggestions on companies that do not use this factor or have a more detailed questionairee and understand it?

I am not interested in lying or cheating but finding a reasonable deal that respects the modest level of most of what I do, without asking for thousands extra per year for insurance.

Before this turns into a general life insurance debate, I'll just say that I do NOT need advice on whether I need it or not, how much or when to get it.

Please keep speculations out of this one - I'm looking for actual experiences.

thanks,
spencer

 

[Stash]

I got my current life insurance policy (and I think it's a decent policy) about 10 years back. I was doing a bit of rock climbing at the time and asked if that was a factor in cost or exclusions for my policy. Simple answer was "No. It's not on the list of bad stuff".

Sky diving, scuba, flying.. Exclusions. Go figure. Maybe statistics work in your favor...

 

[spencer]

Thanks, Stash. Would you mind saying which company? I'm partly trying to ferret out which companies don't use this as a factor.

 

[Paradox]

I am owner of a dental office registered as a corporation and have 10-12 employees, and a wife and two children. I am considered a "Key Employee" of the corporation (without me and my licence to practice the office cannot exist.) Consequently I have an insurance policy that covers me for about 7 mill to my wife and two children and covers wages to my employees for two months in the event of my death. When I signed up for the policy I had to state in writing that I do not engage in certain activities that included mountaineering (scuba diving and small plane piloting were also listed). If I did I would have had to pay substantially higher premiums. I never engage in mountaineering, only hiking .

Here is the salient point. I have the policy, only because I have dependents and employees that would suffer substantial loss in the event of my unexpected demise. An insurance company will only insure you at reasonable premiums, if you have something to lose in the event of your death. They do not insure people or things that engage in risky behaviour because they want to give there money away.

Ergo, if you have dependants or employees you care about, and want taken care in the event of your death then by all means get a life insurance policy. Discuss your activities honestly with the company. If not, definately do not get a life insurance policy (this includes whole life, there are much better and safer ways to invest).

 

[J.Dub]

There have been a couple threads over on summitpost on this very topic.

Here and here.

 

[Stash]

Thanks, Stash. Would you mind saying which company? I'm partly trying to ferret out which companies don't use this as a factor.

See PM.............

 

[Neil]

I discussed this question with my insurance guy and he said I owned my policies (whatever that means) and that even if I commit suicide the companies (3 different ones) have to pay in full.

There is the question of whether you are a climber when you purchase the policies or begin climbing sometime later.

He also said that as far as he was concerned climbing means ropes and harnesses.

(I have also looked into it a bit wrt accident insurance. That's a different animal and not part of this thread.)

 

[Mike P.]

This is what I told the agent, I hike all year, no ropes, no technical climbing (no rock climbing, no ice climbing)....

Crampons & ice axe... They could/should be considered tools for general winter mountaineering. (oops)

snowshoeing, A lot of people do this for winter exercise & with an agressive cleat, you could tackle most if not all of the 48 in the proper conditions.

(on the other hand, you could need crampons right from the car after an ice storm so carrying those things on a snowshoe trip is just in case you find hostile snowshoe conditions, that's my story....)

 

[Stash]

Ergo, if you have dependants or employees you care about, and want taken care in the event of your death then by all means get a life insurance policy. Discuss your activities honestly with the company. If not, definately do not get a life insurance policy (this includes whole life, there are much better and safer ways to invest).

If I may add...

...and the amount of the policy should be realistic. Paradox has a business (including employees) and a family to cover. I have only a family so my amount is quite a bit less. Although I'm no insurance expert I'd assume they'd be a bit more strict with Paradox's rather expensive policy rather than mine which only has to cover a mortgage, college for my daughter and enough to get my wife mack into the workplace.

 

[Chip]

I discussed this question with my insurance guy and he said I owned my policies (whatever that means) and that even if I commit suicide the companies (3 different ones) have to pay in full.

You have reached the "Incontestable" threshold, which is usually 2 years from the start of a new policy. After a policy is in force for 2 years, you can die any way you want (GENERALLY...I'm sure there are exceptions). So if Spencer wants to be perfectly honest, then he'll be charged a ridiculous and possibly prohibative premium because Underwriters don't know or like or understand "Climbing". If he says he does not climb, fly or scuba dive, he has to remain breathing for 2 years.

He also said that as far as he was concerned climbing means ropes and harnesses.

Unfortunately he is a sales person and not the underwriter insuring the loss. "Climbing" could easily mean using crampons, ice axe, conditions, terrain, etc.

 

[Chip]

If I may add...

...and the amount of the policy should be realistic. Paradox has a business (including employees) and a family to cover. I have only a family so my amount is quite a bit less. Although I'm no insurance expert I'd assume they'd be a bit more strict with Paradox's rather expensive policy rather than mine which only has to cover a mortgage, college for my daughter and enough to get my wife mack into the workplace.

Agree. His is not a usual "insurable need". Yours and mine might be a million or 2. Much more than that, and additional restrictions/exemptions are going to apply, possibly including a longer contestability period.

FWIW: I assured Paradox's wife that if anything happened to him on Rainier, I would not hesitate to put him down quickly AND testify "we were only hiking".

 

[AOC-1]

There are many threads at cascadeclimbers.com on this subject (this one includes links to others: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ub...ance/Search/true/Re_Life_Insurance#Post747295.

The distinction between hiking and "climbing" and hiking and "mountaineering" is necessarily fuzzy at the margins. Use of a rope, by itself, doesn't capture a real difference because some people rope up on Class 3 or 4 terrain. Altitude alone is also unhelpful because you can hike fairly high in some places (Mexico volcanoes). But if you're ascending as high as Anatoli Boukreev did, you're definitely "climbing."

 

[Peakbagr]

Although it wasn't asked. If you ask your agent whether you're covered, something is excluded, or to interpret a coverage or anything else in the contract, get it in writing from the agent, or get it in writing from the company.
Your beneficiary does not want to have to fight with the company or agency when they say their policy doesn't provide coverage, or the agent says he would have never told (fill in the blanks) to the deceased.

 

[J.Dub]

But if you're ascending as high as Anatoli Boukreev did, you're definitely "climbing."

Everest is a walk-up.

 

[Stash]

He also said that as far as he was concerned climbing means ropes and harnesses.

So free soloing would be okay!!

 

[evilhanz]

I am in a similar situation to Paradox. I have both a large personal policy and a keyman policy. Just be upfront about your outdoor activities and get any exclusions in writing. They basically want to know whether you are a technical or non-technical climber and what kind of exposure you deal with. So things like rock climbing, ice climbing, high-altitude mountaineering are almost certain to increase your premiums, but just about everything else will not. Unlike other posters, the people I dealt with were able to understand the differences without a lot of extra explanation. Good luck. Having a good life insurance policy is one of the best gifts you can give your family (except for not dying of course!)

 

[Gris]

here's the deal

Gotta read the fine print of the policy and application

matters not what your agent says if doesnt jibe w policy/app

if your agent says hiking is not rock climbing...

confirm that in writing in an email, letter, etc.

then if the carrier denies a hiking injury claim your loved ones can recover from the agent's errors and omissions policy

 

[Woody]

I dealt with this life insurance issue about a year ago after my previous term policy expired. After having the term policy for 20 years my premium sky-rocketed. It was time to get a new policy. When got my first policy 20 years ago I did not hike actively and I did not do technical climbing. I did ski and I played a lot of ice hockey, but those things did not affect my premiums. Fast forward to being in my late 40's and needing a new policy. I started hiking and then technical rock and ice climbing about 10 years ago. I was asked if I did rock and/or ice climbing and asked if I climb mountains over 10,000 feet. I was also asked if I went off trail. Well, I wanted to be sure the policy would pay-off if anything happened to me while I was doing any of these things so I was honest about them. My premium estimates were sky high for the amount of coverage I previously had. My wife and I didn't want to break the bank and all the companies we looked at were in the same price range. We reassessed what our needs were. Our financial situation was different than 20 years previously. My kids are now grown and out of college. My wife and I both have professional jobs and decent salaries and she could cover any bills on her own salary. Also we have a small bit of cash put away. As a result I did not need as much life insurance so I cut the amount a bit to where it was more affordable.
It is totally ridiculous, with the complete lack of understanding regarding climbing. Climbing is one of safest things I do. Driving to work in Massachusetts is far more dangerous.

 

[Puck]

I sold life and disability insurance for period. Agents do have the boiler plate documents that will be part of the policy, including the list of exclusions and contestability clauses. Ask for those.

Disability insurance is also important coverage to have and could carry more exclusions.

I have both life and DI through a comapny plan and does not exclude rock climbing. I guess the actuaries are looking at the stats after all.