Touring Kayaks

[Jay H]

I hope I am not stepping on toes here, to post this here, if I am out of line, feel free to delete this post. I figure most of you aren't just hikers/backpackers and I've grown to like you folks here so here goes:

What's the best thing to buy in the middle of winter... last year's kayaks!

With that in mind, how much "gear" typically do you carry for one-3 night camping trips via a Kayak? I was looking at some touring kayaks from Perception, Wilderness Systems, among others and seems like the small touring kayaks (13'-14') seems to be the best compromise between storage space and mild whitewater ability.

I see most kayaks of these size carry around 4500-5000ci of gear. Now for backpacking, I can go on 4 day trips (in the summer) with 4500ci of gear, what other equipment besides the standard camping gear would one need to have with a Kayak? Would I expect to have something relatively similar?

What would be the difference between "touring" and "day touring" if you find a boat with the same storage space and dimensions?

The Perception Enduro or Sonoma 13.5 looks interesting as well as the "light touring" kayaks from Wilderness Systems.

I am a cyclist/hiker who is thinking about getting a kayak for paddling trips to Idaho and Alaska. I think travelling with a 14' kayak would be interesting, I think the sectioned kayaks would be out of my budget though. Do most of you who kayak rent them or have you managed to UPS or bring them on the plane before?

Jay

 

[sardog1]

If you're real serious about Alaska, I'd think real seriously about a folding kayak. It makes a lot of sense where there are (1) lots of bush aircraft and ferries that go to wonderful places and (2) lots of powerboat crowding on the inland waters that are accessible from the highways. (You cannot imagine the sensation of having a jetboat roar into your "secluded" spot dozens of miles up a river. Followed swiftly by many more jetboats that same day.)

Yeah, folding boats are slower than rigid hulls, and they're often more expensive. But the flexibility of a folding boat (no pun intended) is unmatched for getting to places that others only dream of seeing.

There are several Web sites devoted to folding kayaks. I suggest that you check them out and talk with some users before making up your mind. Personally, I'd own a Klepper again in a minute, and I deeply regret selling it years ago. (But this time my wife would want two single boats, not the double that we had.)

 

[snowshoe]

Jay go to www.paddling.net. There is great info there as well.

 

[Rick]

Jay -
If you are seriously considering a touring Yak and are on a budget, I would consider several things -
First, it will cost a fortune to ship your boat to Alaska (you can try Forwardair.com - I think they are the most reasonable).
Otherwise many of my friends just go through an outfitter and rent a boat once they get to their destination - be it Nova Scotia, PE Island or Alaska.

As for when to buy, Spring is when the many of the outfitters hold their large sales of demo and used boats. Think about this - you can't try out the boat on ice, and I don't think is really wise to buy a boat without paddling it first. Not to scare you too much, but there was a fellow that bought a boat around here late last winter and took it out in the local reservoir while his girlfriend was on shore watching - (He had no PFD or wetsuit) he tipped it and could not self rescue and ended up slipping under the cold water and drowned - in front of her eyes.

As for touring boats, 14' is a short boat - If you are looking for primarily touring and nothing else, go longer - The longer the hull length, the better it tracks and the fast it goes.
In addition, if you stick with cheaper boats, you get into areas like primary and secondary stability, where cheaper boats have little secondary stability - Cheaper boats (most that are under $1,000 and typically have a flatter bottom hull and more perpendicular sides - great for just sitting in the water or playing on small lakes/ponds.

Better built boats have decent primary stability but better secondary stability - You can lean, handle rougher water and recover faster & easier. Typically the hulls have more of a curve or V shape to them so you can tip them and hold that positon without rolling or flipping.

If you have NG access, check out the FAQs on rec.paddling, or rec.paddle.touring, (If I remember correctly...)

I can easily carry 3-4 days worth of gear in my Necky Zoar (16') - It has for and aft storage. I have an old Perception Acadia Expedition (12') with aft storage and if I am careful I can get 3-4 days worth of gear in there. however, the Perception is one of those cheaper boats that track awful and has not secondary stability and (like the Carolina that was mentioned) is made with regular polyethelene (PE) which does not have the same qualities as super-linear PE

Many people that I paddle with have lamented that they started with a "Smaller" touring boat, and then bought a good touring boat, including myself.
Keep in mind that "good" is relative - There are folks with Kevlar or glass boats that would look at my "good" Necky and think it is a tugboat.

I would also hook up with a group like the ADK or similar group that offers pool practices and learn braces, wet exits, self rescue w/paddle float and team resuce and finally, rolls.

Finally, Spend good money on a good paddle and good PFD - You will have the paddle in your hand and the PFD on constantly and comfort really does matter when touring.

Good luck. I can check my NG server at home to see what the actual NG names are and e-mail them to you...

 

[Stan]

There certainly are some paddlers here ... it helps redistribute the wear from our knees to our shoulders. Webmeister Darren is an avid paddler.

I've only had a few overnight paddling trips and one was partially supplied by powerboat so take this from the perspective of fairly limited experience. They involved trips to coastal islands in Maine where you need, in addition to your usual backpacking and paddling gear, a porta-potty or "boom box" of some sort. Those islands do not have "facilities" and are too fragile, with very shallow topsoil, to allow the usual backpacking method of taking a dump.

I think the characteristics of the boat you'd want on Idaho Rivers with rapids would be quite different than you'd want for coastal Alaskan kayaking and would expect that compromising for both might leave you disappointed. On the other hand, if your Idaho plans were to include relatively flatwater such as lakes, ponds and gently flowing rivers, the same boat could work. With such a boat you could perhaps undertake more aggressive rivers with more planned portages.

A 13-14' boat probably has adequate capacity and stability but may be slower than necessary. I don't own a boat but am furnished one when I lead trips and often rent. My favorite, so far, is made by Lincoln Kayak in Freeport, ME. My only complaint is that the front hatch is so small one tends to load heavy stuff in the rear hatch causing the stern to drop a bit ... barely perceptable but I suspect enough to upset the efficiency of the hull shape.

Another opportunity for good prices is end of season rentals.

 

[Jay H]

That's the problem, too many different places I'd like to go to! I really don't care about speed too much, it's stability and weight with a secondary need that it will carry about 4000ci of gear. I figure a certain length will pretty much guarantee my storage requirements so a 'yak that is stable (Something the Rick mentions is bad about the carolina..I"ll keep that in mind).

I'd really like to make a hiking rig so I can drag the kayak out to a tiny lake in the middle of nowhere and just go out on the lake, but I'd also like to be able to do multiday trips along flat rivers and possibly bays. I've posted my first question over at paddling.net so we'll see where that takes me.

Thanks everybody!

Jay

 

[ExploreTheEast]

Canoe and Kayak magazine has a "special issue" on the newstands right now called "Kayak Touring," which has a pretty good article on folding kayaks from 8 different manufacturers. Many of the ones profiled weigh less than 40 lbs and fold down to less than 40 inches, which means no extra baggage charges on a commercial airline.

If I could have used the money I spent in the past 2 years renting kayaks, I would have been able to buy one of these babies by now!

Here's links to two manufacturer's websites:

http://www.foldingcraft.com
http://www.atlyak.com

 

[snowshoe]

Jay that was the prolem I ran into. Too many places to go. I wanted a touring as well but relized I would have been ery limited to were I can Paddle. If you get a touring Kayak meaning the long Narrow ones you will have a harder time on the Delaware as well as the Wallkill and many of the local lakes. It would be overkill. Plus it will be harder to portage to remote lakes. The only places a Touring boat is good for is oceans, Bays and Large lakes. Thats why I think you may be better off with something one step down from the touring, like maybe the Wilderness systems Manteo. With this you still can get away with overnights, you can use it on flat water. It wont track as well as a touring but it will be easier on Class 1and 2 rapides. You can use it in more places like NJ and S NY. Then when you go to Alaska it may pay to rent a touring. You could always rent one in NJ to practice and get the feel for it before you head out their. There are a few places you can rent in NJ. You can always use my pool to practice rolles as well.

 

[darren]

Kayak questions are fine here. They get you into the backcountry...

I agree with what everone has said so far.

I'll second the fact that you will be hard pressed to get a "touring" boat that can carry some gear that can handle white water. It's just a matter of turning radius vs size.

When you look at the size of storage area, keep in mind that you dont have to store everything inside the kayak. You can take a dry bag and strap it on top of your deck if you need more storage. This will impact your stability and your ability to do a roll, but if you want to load up gear for a multiday trip on protected water, it is an option.

My advice is to try as many boats as you can before you buy. After you pick a boat, spend some time trying to find it used. I always say that 1 of 2 things will happen when you buy a kayak. You either end up never using it and selling it, or you end up using it all the time and quickly wish you had bought a better boat to begin with. Start off with a used boat and you wont get hit too hard in the wallet no matter which 'course' you end up on.

As for the difference between touring and day touring, it's probably jus a marketing thing. If they are both the same size, then the "touring" one is probably just a marketing ploy. know what I mean?

If I drive somewhere, I bring my own kayaks, but if I fly somewhere I just rent.

Stay tuned, there will be several VFTT kayak trips next summer.

- darren

 

[darren]

I'd really like to make a hiking rig so I can drag the kayak out to a tiny lake in the middle of nowhere and just go out on the lake,
Jay

I got delayed in posting my last message and I didn't see this until I already posted the last one.

Unless you get a foldup and put the 40 lb sack on your back, you are going to have a hard time hauling a kayak to a lake in the middle of nowhere. Even if you get a smaller "touring" yak, like a 13' or 14', it is going to be heavy and awkward. Plastic boats can easily weigh 50 lbs. 50 lbs isn't a lot of weight, but 50 lbs over 14' is a lot of leverage and is awkward to haul around. I have 3 kayaks, 2 fiberglass and 1 plastic. Even though my fiberglass 17' yak is light, it is still awkward because weight over length = lever. It will shift around on you.

You could make a sled with big wheels, but I have a little cart I made and I have a hard time just dragging it down gravel roads.

Anyone else have experience with hauling a yak though the woods?

- darren

 

[Jay H]

Hey again, good point Darren regarding the above deck storage. Obviously not ideal but should work in a pinch. I'm usually a very light packer (Ask Shawn!)

Perhaps I should go smaller then to make maneurverability better. I'm not going to be going on any class III+ rapids (at least not in the kayak I'll be getting anyway).

Have to see if Campmor allows demos. I've heard of a place down by Brick (jerseypaddler.com) that looks huge and they have a small pond where they are. Brick is not far from my sister so might take a trip down there come spring.

Here's a small list of interesting kayaks:

Wilderness Systems Shaman
Dagger Blackwater 12.5
Current Design Kestrel 120 (this one is a new '04 model)

Heard a lot of good stuff about the Phase 3 seats from WS at paddling.net and some so-so reviews on the Blackwater.

The Kestrel looks interesting, being the shortest at 12' and also the lightest at 46lbs. Their TCS composite is super light but probably super expensive also but I've emailed them to see their MSRP.

Jay

 

[Rick]

Jay - I didn't realize you were here in Jersey - Check out the Jersey Shore Sea Kayak Association for a close to home organization

http://www.goldcar.com/cgi-bin/yabbk/YaBB.pl

 

[Stan]

"Anyone else have experience with hauling a yak though the woods?"

Yeah, sort of. On our kayak bushwhack from Johns Pond to Waquoit Bay (Cape Cod) we hauled the boat but it was mostly through Bay Bushes, over blowdowns and across tidal flats. The benefit of having a tandem and two people to "haul" applies across terra firma, too.

 

[Jay H]

Next time I'm at a bookstore, I'll have to check that out..

Yeah, I'm in Jersey, western Passaic County to be exact. The only time I've experienced portaging a boat it was during NYARA's Longest Day AV in Harrimen where we had to portage a Huge-Ass Canoe (tm) from lake to lake. I'm a small guy and carrying that canoe was a PITA, but then you should of seen the looks of the picnics at Lake Sebago watch us coming running down the road that goes from Seven Lakes drive to the lake.... Priceless!!! because at that point, my friend had the entire canoe on his shoulders while my other friend and I carried the oars and his pack.

Anyway, I don't know how much sea kayaking I would do, but there are alot of bays and inlets down there that are nice, Matawan, Manasquan, etc. etc..

Jay

 

[LauraM]

Jay:

I echo all that has been said by the yakkers. I have 2, yes 2 kayaks for different trips. I have a Lincoln 14.5 fter and an Impex 16 fter -- both kevlar because I wanted to be able to put them on my car by myself -- the Lincoln is 33 lbs, the Impex 43 lbs. Sounds like something like my Lincoln is what you want -- it is a great boat, very versatle. I have taken it in the ocean, on lakes, on rivers (not whitewater -- the Penobscot, other flatwater) and been very comfortable with it. It has a 24inch beam, so it is wider than my Impex (22 inch), hence slower, but I can still keep up with people is faster touring boats. You might not be happy with something as small as 12.5 ft. if you want to do overnight trips, but 16+ may be too big for what you want to do. I have a dry bag that hooks right on my deck, and you can easily strap other stuff to the deck.

I got the Impex used -- saved a bundle! Darren is right on that point.

I also echo what Rick said -- get a good paddle and pfd that is comfortable. I have an old paddle that is aluminum and plastic -- very heavy, which means the same as having a heavy pack -- less energy for the trip. My new one is carbon fiber -- about a quarter of the weight, and fantastic to paddle with!

Good luck! Glad to hear you are joining the ranks of the yakkers!

Laura

 

[darren]

I'll second LauraM on the fiberglass paddle. I finally got one 2 years ago and I can't believe I paddled so long without one. Huge difference.

BTW, if you haven't taken a lesson yet, take one. Learn how to paddle from a pro. Proper paddling technique is essential for longer trips. Kayak paddling is NOT like paddling a canoe. It is not strength based. It is all technique and keeping your arms and hands relaxed.

Being small is an asset in kayaking. You have a much bigger choice of kayaks to paddle. I'm 6'4" so getting a small boat is not an option for me.

Good luck.

- darren

 

[Jay H]

Yup, I want to take a lesson (maybe Shawn's pool would be a good start) and then hit that Paddlesport expo at the Garden State Expo Center in Mar 26th (Anybody going, maybe we can meet up). and then look at a bunch of them at Jersey paddler.com which seems to be a huge shop. They have a ton of brands and would probably be the easiest place to compare. I think I'm going to stick to mostly inland paddling so I think I will go on the smaller side. Then if I do decide to take it out on the ocean, I can look at longer kayaks but I guess it's smarter to look to get a good glass/kevlar 12-13' I should be able to easily do overnighters with 3500ci of gear (I think) which is probably the space a typical 12-13' yak would have.

Ack... Can't wait for snow so I can go X-C skiing, can't wait for water so I can learn to Kayak......

So, if anybody is thinking of going to that Paddlesport down in the GSEC (Mar 26-28th), the link is:

Paddlesport

Maybe we can get a VFTT "help buy Jay H a kayak" gathering?

Jay

 

[Jay H]

What do you folks use for a roof rack carrier. I have the Thule crossbars but Thule.Yakima all seem to be interchangeable these days. Both the Thule Hull-A-Port and the Yakima Hullraiser seem to be similar J-carrier designs with similar pricing. I've been recommended basic pipe insulation on the non padded parts and there is something about the Yakima washers that are bad. But other than that, anybody have any advice to which one is better for the paddler. I guess the j-carriers will allow for more kayaks than the lay flat designs.

Jay

 

[snowshoe]

Jay I think the Stacker rack system that thule and yakima make are probably the best and for your size car you can get more boats on with the stackers. Too save money I use my factory racks for my two boats and I can even get a 3rd boat on by just useing the factory cross bars. It works just as well as any rack I have seen.

 

[Jay H]

I've looked at those. You don't have problems with the crossbars putting a dent into your plastic boat? Even on hot summer trips? Do you use any paddling on the crossbars?

I would certainly put some kind of padding down rather than rachet a kayak on it's side right on the crossbar, I dunno, I know a glass/composite boat wont be as affected by this but I think those J-carriers are about the same price as that stacker thing and it looks like it has better padding.

Jay