Tourism pledges

[DayTrip]

I have to say that after descending Tuckerman Ravine/Lion Head Trail SAT that this whole problem goes beyond education. It's cultural. People just do not care and they do not want to be inconvenienced. Most know what they should be doing but just do not want to be bothered. Not carrying lights, not having traction, trampling the alpine vegetation to avoid issues they should be prepared for, etc. I talked to plenty of people on the way down who were wildly unprepared for what could have been and they knew it.

I know it's a minority view point here but I personally think you need to save these people from themselves and do the decision making for them or we will never move the needle on these issues. We need accountability, not just education. For every person we reach through education there are 10 saying "Mind your own business. I know the hazards and I'll do what I want."

 

[sierra]

I have to say that after descending Tuckerman Ravine/Lion Head Trail SAT that this whole problem goes beyond education. It's cultural. People just do not care and they do not want to be inconvenienced. Most know what they should be doing but just do not want to be bothered. Not carrying lights, not having traction, trampling the alpine vegetation to avoid issues they should be prepared for, etc. I talked to plenty of people on the way down who were wildly unprepared for what could have been and they knew it.

I know it's a minority view point here but I personally think you need to save these people from themselves and do the decision making for them or we will never move the needle on these issues. We need accountability, not just education. For every person we reach through education there are 10 saying "Mind your own business. I know the hazards and I'll do what I want."

Can you elaborate on how we can save people from themselves and do the decision making for them?

 

[BISCUT]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I prefer to avoid to the greatest extent possible mixing the outdoors with lawyers, paperwork, and signatures. There are better ways. On that note, can someone please start circulating an appropriate photo with the meme, "Every time you leave your used TP on the side of the trail, God kills a kitten"? TIA!

I agree, isn't this why the escape to mother nature is so beneficial to the mind and spirit? Why hide what is essentially an educational program and demand signatures. While intentions may be grounded in doing the appropriate thing there will soon enough come a legislature that will want to add it to the law books, despite it being redundant.

 

[BISCUT]

I have to say that after descending Tuckerman Ravine/Lion Head Trail SAT that this whole problem goes beyond education. It's cultural. People just do not care and they do not want to be inconvenienced. Most know what they should be doing but just do not want to be bothered. Not carrying lights, not having traction, trampling the alpine vegetation to avoid issues they should be prepared for, etc. I talked to plenty of people on the way down who were wildly unprepared for what could have been and they knew it.

I know it's a minority view point here but I personally think you need to save these people from themselves and do the decision making for them or we will never move the needle on these issues. We need accountability, not just education. For every person we reach through education there are 10 saying "Mind your own business. I know the hazards and I'll do what I want."

There have been many governments (USSR, Venezuela, etc...)who have done just that for their people and we all know how that has worked out. Adding crutches like making decisions for people in the mountains is the antithesis of the independence and growth completing a summit hike or failing one provides. Just me and my opinion.

 

[DayTrip]

Can you elaborate on how we can save people from themselves and do the decision making for them?

As an example, when the trail head stewards are educating hikers don't just suggest they bring a headlamp. Make sure they have one, it has batteries and works, etc and either fine them if they don't or have one available for mandatory sale so they don't head out on the trail without one. Obviously you can't do this for every facet of people's lives (and I'm not suggesting we do) but this constantly recurring pattern of the same errors in rescue after rescue really is nonsense. I mean how many people need to be walked out of the woods by SAR without a headlamp before we start treating them like adults and punishing them or preventing the occurrence? Far better uses for their time and resources than reliving the same mistake over and over.

And if we're not trying to move the needle at all then just get rid of all these programs, signage, etc and just use the money to beef up the SAR budget for the inevitable rescues that result from the uninformed and unconcerned public. We're just complaining about the problem while offering no solutions in a resource consuming spiral of nonsense.

 

[DayTrip]

There have been many governments (USSR, Venezuela, etc...)who have done just that for their people and we all know how that has worked out. Adding crutches like making decisions for people in the mountains is the antithesis of the independence and growth completing a summit hike or failing one provides. Just me and my opinion.

Yah that might be an extreme extrapolation of what I'm saying. I don't see how forcing someone to have a vital piece of needed equipment in their gear is giving them a crutch. I'm NOT saying we tell them where to go and what to do and how to do it. I'm saying if you don't have the mental capacity to realize you need a headlamp when its dark why not just force that person to have one and make them safer than they were when you started.

 

[KV]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I prefer to avoid to the greatest extent possible mixing the outdoors with lawyers, paperwork, and signatures. There are better ways. On that note, can someone please start circulating an appropriate photo with the meme, "Every time you leave your used TP on the side of the trail, God kills a kitten"? TIA!

Here you go

 

[DayTrip]

Here you go

Problem solved !!

 

[skiguy]

Yah that might be an extreme extrapolation of what I'm saying. I don't see how forcing someone to have a vital piece of needed equipment in their gear is giving them a crutch. I'm NOT saying we tell them where to go and what to do and how to do it. I'm saying if you don't have the mental capacity to realize you need a headlamp when its dark why not just force that person to have one and make them safer than they were when you started.

"Force" is some pretty strong language IMO. "Suggest" might go over better. We already have plenty of rules and educational mechanisms in place without needing "COP Like" enforcement at trailheads.

 

[DayTrip]

"Force" is some pretty strong language IMO. "Suggest" might go over better. We already have plenty of rules and educational mechanisms in place without needing "COP Like" enforcement at trailheads.

Agreed. Probably the wrong word choice. Maybe "staple a headlamp to their face" would be more appropriate... (KIDDING!). But to your point on plenty of enforcement and education already in place - why aren't we getting anywhere with all this stuff? That was the only point I've been attempting to make, apparently horribly. What we're doing now is not working. So do we do something more aggressive or do we just say screw it and ignore the issues?

 

[TCD]

Old discussion. If this were a private business, the problems would have been solved long ago, or they would have been out of business. Gather data, pareto the data, fix the root cause and ignore the whiners.

What's obvious here (and I suggested this years ago in another SAR thread) is that the lack of a light source generates a lot of easily avoidable SAR events. I would guess it would be high on the pareto. So (again, as I suggested years ago) you pick that as a "focus issue." Simple rule - put an educator at the major trailheads who reminds you to bring a light, has lights for sale if you need one, and lets you know that if you create a SAR event due to lack of a light you are paying the full cost plus a $500 fine. And that problem goes away. Then, redo the pareto and pick the next "focus issue."

This is easy. But no one's doing it. They'd rather whine about how hard it is to do, and how they need to develop a "comprehensive plan" (read "retirement security for state agency employees"), or how charging a fine will negatively affect SAR (read "we want to make sure we have a budgeted income stream for our SAR group"). Heck, here in NY, the state won't even pay for trailhead educators. The only ones we have are being provided by tiny underfunded volunteer organizations, while the state spends 16 million dollars building a toilet for the tourists at the highway rest area.

Get used to it. Pay your taxes, or move...

 

[DayTrip]

Old discussion. If this were a private business, the problems would have been solved long ago, or they would have been out of business. Gather data, pareto the data, fix the root cause and ignore the whiners.

What's obvious here (and I suggested this years ago in another SAR thread) is that the lack of a light source generates a lot of easily avoidable SAR events. I would guess it would be high on the pareto. So (again, as I suggested years ago) you pick that as a "focus issue." Simple rule - put an educator at the major trailheads who reminds you to bring a light, has lights for sale if you need one, and lets you know that if you create a SAR event due to lack of a light you are paying the full cost plus a $500 fine. And that problem goes away. Then, redo the pareto and pick the next "focus issue."

This is easy. But no one's doing it. They'd rather whine about how hard it is to do, and how they need to develop a "comprehensive plan" (read "retirement security for state agency employees"), or how charging a fine will negatively affect SAR (read "we want to make sure we have a budgeted income stream for our SAR group"). Heck, here in NY, the state won't even pay for trailhead educators. The only ones we have are being provided by tiny underfunded volunteer organizations, while the state spends 16 million dollars building a toilet for the tourists at the highway rest area.

Get used to it. Pay your taxes, or move...

I remember that thread and you making this suggestion and thought it was a fantastic idea, and I'm not trying to take credit for that idea if I'm coming across that way. It just seemed like a really good, concrete example to use that stood out in my mind as an easy way to illustrate what I meant by "force" people to help themselves and address an issue. Some of the other problem issues are a lot more "murky" than this one but I'm sure can be addressed in a similar way. I'm just surprised at all the outrage these incidents stir up here and elsewhere when they happen, the criticism of the actions taken by these people and yet somehow we are diametrically opposed to limiting their behavior in any way to solve the problem because it infringes on their individual freedoms. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[TCD]

We often disagree, but this is a good analysis. Thanks. I hope some people at various government agencies can think clearly like this.

 

[skiguy]

Imagine a scatter plot, with the X axis being people who know the right thing to do (less knowledgeable on the left, more on the right). The Y axis being people who want to do the right thing (higher being people who try harder, lower less so). This produces 4 types of people:

1.) Top Left - People who want to do the right thing but don' know any better
2.) Top Right - People who know what to do and do it
3.) Bottom Left - People who don't know and don't care
4.) Bottom Right - People who do know and still don't care

I think most people on this forum fall in to #2. We're hardly the target demographic for the education we're discussing. There are some people in society that fall into #4, people that for some reason think their poop doesn't stink, or don't care if other people have to smell it. While those people might stick out, I think they are a minority.

I think most people fall into #1 and #3, and I think the debate is over what the ratio is. If most people fall into #1, then education should be enough. If most people fall into #3, all education will do is make them move to #4, with perhaps some converts that, once they learn will change their ways.

So, how do you educate people that maybe aren't looking to be educated? Tourism places having guest make pledges seems as good a way as any. I think of it as akin to getting the safety talk before rafting. You can't enforce it, but you might move some people from #1 to #2.

I don’t think you would have much luck getting people to sign pledges in the White Mountains. There are a lot of #3’s and #4’s whom already don’t care and will continue to do so even if they did sign a pledge. We already have people breaking laws whom don’t think the rules apply to them. Kind of like the folks whom thought parking on the side of 93 in Franconia Notch was OK. Institution of another system would also have to be funded and staffed. The Whites are already under staffed with out bringing on another system to take care of. Also as I have already stated many would perceive it as intrusive and the effect could possibly have the reverse result. Just look at how many complain already about all the guidelines and rules in Baxter State Park and still leave there TP around for someone else to pick up.

 

[TCD]

Of course we are talking on this thread about state and federal land management agencies.

But to join you in the thread drift, I well remember 50 years ago when NASA was the bastion of the best and the brightest. And when being a "rocket scientist" meant something.

 

[sierra]

As an example, when the trail head stewards are educating hikers don't just suggest they bring a headlamp. Make sure they have one, it has batteries and works, etc and either fine them if they don't or have one available for mandatory sale so they don't head out on the trail without one. Obviously you can't do this for every facet of people's lives (and I'm not suggesting we do) but this constantly recurring pattern of the same errors in rescue after rescue really is nonsense. I mean how many people need to be walked out of the woods by SAR without a headlamp before we start treating them like adults and punishing them or preventing the occurrence? Far better uses for their time and resources than reliving the same mistake over and over.

And if we're not trying to move the needle at all then just get rid of all these programs, signage, etc and just use the money to beef up the SAR budget for the inevitable rescues that result from the uninformed and unconcerned public. We're just complaining about the problem while offering no solutions in a resource consuming spiral of nonsense.

I understand your frustration, but there are a few problems with your suggestions. One, the Steward program is barely used and considering how little ground they cover, it hardly makes a dent. The Whites have so many access points, there is no way to reach even a small number of total visitors. I don't think you can make someone buy something either, whether they need it or not. If the Whites were set up like Baxter or Yosemite, you can impact everyone at the gates, but the Whites are to open and there is no way to greet people who enter, not would you find the funding for it. The Whites are no different then any other mountainous region in the USA, the Social Media platform has blown the hiking world wide open. My friends in CO complain about rescues just like we do and they get a comparable number. You cant mandate intelligence and you cant stop people from entering Federal land. I have always advocated for charging for rescues and I mean getting every penny back. Then you blast the same social media platforms with the incidents and the associated charges incurred. Maybe that might make a difference, at the very least it will pay for the rescue cost that strain and destroy the Fish and Game budget year after year. I stopped worrying about this issue a few years back, its not worth it to me to stress over something that you cant control. If I see unprepared hikers and they ask for help, I will gladly spend the time to help in any way I can. If I'm not asked, I just move on by and let nature take its course.

 

[skiguy]

I agree that it can't be forced. I envisioned this kind of stuff being successful when it's brought up by tour groups and other companies that provide adventure and trips. Kind of like the AMC does with their dinner talks (at least a couple life overheard will using the bathroom at dinner time).

Other than that the next best ways to make sure that it's part of the educational curriculum. This seems like something people should learn in kindergarten.

People go to New Hampshire to have recreational experiences. In other words have fun. Heck the sign says "Live Free or Die" when you drive over the boarder. I truly believe a lot of folks leave their common sense at home in the State they came from. I feel the most for those from Maine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTVNZojojU

 

[Grey J]

Speaking of the New Hampshire motto, I found this plate in Concord worthy of a photo.