Trail Food: Dense Calories, easy to eat ?

[Neil]

I'm not a biochemist, so I cannot respond at that level.

The fact remains that humans have been observed to survive for extended periods on fat and protein.

Doug

Absolutely. Protein to sugar. Good old biological nanotech. However, while peakbagging or doing some other prolonged, high output activity I think it would be better to obtain one's carbs from external sources versus breaking down one's own proteins and scavenging the carbon skeletons. Hence the candy floss matrix for Pete's olive oil.

(Growing up in Manitoba I used to use the Inuit as an example to explain and justify some of my various practices and behaviors. My older sister always came back at me by citing the life span of the average Inuit. I forget what it was but it was awfully low.)

 

[Gris]

"Sputter"

At least that's what we call it. It's an olive oil based butter/magarine subsitute made by Fleishmans that comes in a squeeze bottle. Is sufficiently self-preserving and tases unreal goooood...

 

[Peakbagr]

Some good recipes and ideas here. One of my concerns, though is digestive.
I've always read that sugar burns first(and easiest), followed by carbohydrates, and then fat.
The concern being a good time to eat higher fat and denser carbs is dinner on a winter trip. Eating them while pushing yourself means that they digest much more slowly as your blood supply is busy rushing Oxy to the working muscles. To me this has always meant that these foods sit in your stomach longer, as the blood is 'busy' elsewhere.
I do find that a fat laden lunch midway on a longer trip does in fact seem not to contribute much until later, but the carbs with a tad of sugar jump right in quickly.

 

[DougPaul]

Absolutely. Protein to sugar. Good old biological nanotech. However, while peakbagging or doing some other prolonged, high output activity I think it would be better to obtain one's carbs from external sources versus breaking down one's own proteins and scavenging the carbon skeletons. Hence the candy floss matrix for Pete's olive oil.

Did you read my reference? According to it, you will have problems if the percentage of protein is too high. I think the bulk of the muscle energy comes from the fats. And since people can live on the carb-free diet for extended periods, they must not be having a net loss of protein.

I agree that if you need a quick burst of energy, carbs are the way to go. And the books that I have read on nutrition for exercise pretty much all endorse carbs as the primary high-activity fuel (and state that fats are a good long-term low-to-moderate activity fuel). However, the experience of those living with a carb-free intake shows that one can live and function well (including high levels of activity) without. I suspect that they maintain a constant high output without using quick-burst (eg carb) fuels. It is also possible that they have some adaptations that allow them to do it more efficiently than those of us who are from more temperate regions*. For those of us who normally eat a carb-rich diet, switching to non-carb diets for short trips (say up to a week or so) might be difficult--I've never tried it myself.

* From what I have read, slow-twitch muscle fibers are better at burning fats and fast-twitch muscle fibers are better at burning carbs.

(Growing up in Manitoba I used to use the Innuit as an example to explain and justify some of my various practices and behaviors. My older sister always came back at me by citing the life span of the average Innuit. I forget what it was but it was awfully low.)

The traditional Inuit live a hard life in an unforgiving and dangerous environment. Makes it a bit hard to compare lifespans unless one is able to factor out the different causes of death. In this particular case, they didn't have the option of eating much in the way of carbs. Maybe they would have done better with or maybe not...

BTW, there is a common myth that one will get scurvy on a meat and fat diet. Fresh meat contains adequate vitamin C--western styles of high-temperature cooking tend to destroy it. The Inuit tend to cook meat by minimal boiling which leaves sufficient vitamin C.

IIRC, the benefits of omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) were discovered by observing the low rates of heart disease among the Inuit. (Fish is a significant part of their diet.)

Doug

 

[Neil]

When we went out for 5 or 6 day winter camping trips in Manitoba we suddenly switched to a nearly all-meat diet. Bacon and sausages for breakfast, sausage meat, cocolate and nuts for trail food and one pound of meat per person at dinner. We never experienced any ill effects from the drastic albeit short termed change in our diet. We estimated our caloric expenditure at 10-12,000 per day and usually lost weight on these trips but we did everything at a moderate and deliberate level of exertion.

Then a few years ago I made a drastic change in our nutrition and switched us to a high carb, moderate protein, low fat diet. Subjectively, we felt we had a lot more energy and were able to go on much longer dayhikes with less fatigue at the end of the day.

I too suspect the Inuit didn't do a lot of sprinting. The bulk of fuel for low to mid level activities comes from fat, which is why people trying to lose weight work out in the so-called fat burning zone. As exercise intensity increases the ratio of carbs to fat gets progressively tilted more and more in favor of carbs. I've not done specific research for NE peakbagging but I would suspect that while on the long, steep uphills the tendency favors carbs. (Not short bursts, but sustained high intensity). Interestingly, this is a trainable phenomenon and individuals who are better trained will have lower carb-fat fuel consumption ratios than untrained. But, even at a slow amble on a sidewalk some carbs are required fuel.

Carbs are taken up quite slowly by muscles, and the manipulation of this source of fuel (muscle glycogen) as well as its consumption, through carb loading, caffeine drinks, training etc. is an important part of energy strategy.
As the amount of carbs within the muscles becomes depleted there is a proportional increase in the sensation of fatigue within that muscle. In prolonged exercise like hiking this is why pacing is as important as nutritional strategies. Ie. One can "spare " the muscle glycogen simply by going slower.

As for living on a nearly carb free diet it's not a problem because proteins are simply carbs with amino groups (nitrogen containing) added on and are easily de-aminated and made into glucose.

My apologies to Chip!

The traditional Inuit live a hard life in an unforgiving and dangerous environment. Makes it a bit hard to compare lifespans unless one is able to factor out the different causes of death.

Where were you when I needed to have the last word with my sister?

Interesting reference, btw! I've never used Google Books before. Here's a little reference on gluconeogenesis

[/threadjack]

 

[DougPaul]

A detailed modern recipe for making pemmican:
http://www.breadandmoney.com/docs/pemmican2006.html

A "traditional" (1860) recipe:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Cf...ts=x1NlkpH9hd&sig=gDK5n9kGA8X8Oh4c6uwBkPPyih8

Note that for long term use, one has to keep the protein intake to be less than ~25% of the calories. Too high a percentage of protein can result in death in several weeks. http://books.google.com/books?id=ON...ts=rKKwtPUsmB&sig=JuzSbUt6ffpN9V5iAniQ32fgMKQ

There are also some interesting comments by people have have eaten pemmican in http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/11/22/protein-helps-genghis-khan-conquer-the-world/ (a discussion on ancient diets).

Note also that the body does not metabolize fats well at high altitudes (>15K ft?). High altitude diets have to use carbs as the major energy source.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

When we went out for 5 or 6 day winter camping trips in Manitoba we suddenly switched to a nearly all-meat diet. Bacon and sausages for breakfast, sausage meat, cocolate and nuts for trail food and one pound of meat per person at dinner. We never experienced any ill effects from the drastic albeit short termed change in our diet. We estimated our caloric expenditure at 10-12,000 per day and usually lost weight on these trips but we did everything at a moderate and deliberate level of exertion.

A nearly all-meat diet can make you sick and be lethal in several weeks:
Rabbit starvation: http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time 1-2/vilhjalmur_stefansson1.htm
Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ON...ts=rKKwtPUsmB&sig=JuzSbUt6ffpN9V5iAniQ32fgMKQ

Then a few years ago I made a drastic change in our nutrition and switched us to a high carb, moderate protein, low fat diet. Subjectively, we felt we had a lot more energy and were able to go on much longer dayhikes with less fatigue at the end of the day.

I too suspect the Inuit didn't do a lot of sprinting. The bulk of fuel for low to mid level activities comes from fat, which is why people trying to lose weight work out in the so-called fat burning zone. As exercise intensity increases the ratio of carbs to fat gets progressively tilted more and more in favor of carbs. I've not done specific research for NE peakbagging but I would suspect that while on the long, steep uphills the tendency favors carbs. (Not short bursts, but sustained high intensity). Interestingly, this is a trainable phenomenon and individuals who are better trained will have lower carb-fat fuel consumption ratios than untrained. But, even at a slow amble on a sidewalk some carbs are required fuel.

It looks to me like the Inuit engaged in some high intensity activities--running a dog sled requires a lot of effort on the part of the human. Running along side, pushing the sled, etc.

As for living on a nearly carb free diet it's not a problem because proteins are simply carbs with amino groups (nitrogen containing) added on and are easily de-aminated and made into glucose.

The rate at which one can convert protein into glucose appears to be limited to ~1600 cal/day--hardly enough to power vigorous activity. http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time 1-2/vilhjalmur_stefansson1.htm. Fat is the primary muscle fuel when eating a fat+protein diet.

Where were you when I needed to have the last word with my sister?

Should have asked earlier--I first read about pemmican and some of the details of Inuit survival when reading some of Stefansson's books 30 years ago.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

Calories/ounce:
240 pure fat (eg olive oil)
203 butter/margarine
167 peanut butter

I'll add one here. Fish oil capsules. 225 Cal/oz. Certainly dense in Calories, easy to swallow with a bit of water/Gatorade, and some low quality protein (gelatin) thrown in.

 

[pedxing]

Good ideas here. I'll have to try a recipe for Logan bread.

A couple of my favorites:

Macadamia nuts - delicious and over 200 calories per ounce.

Dry Salami's - hard to get over 120 calories per ounce, but designed to keep virtually forever in all temperatures. Trader Joes and most supermarkets have some, but Italian delis (like Sessa's in Davis Square) can steer you towards some really delicious ones. These are a staple for me in stoveless summer backpacking.

Nut mixes - the mix I have with me right now has fruit and gets a 140 calories/ounce, one's without fruit get significantly more.

 

[el-bagr]

Olive oil, judiciously salted.

 

[Chip]

A nearly all-meat diet can make you sick and be lethal in several weeks:
Rabbit starvation: http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time 1-2/vilhjalmur_stefansson1.htm
Doug

That's due to no fat in the mix, not because the diet is all meat. This can be corrected by eating the organs, brain, bone, etc.

Not that I'm going to be subsisting solely on rabbit any time soon. I do need to try some of the recipes given here. Thanks for all the input.

 

[DougPaul]

That's due to no fat in the mix, not because the diet is all meat. This can be corrected by eating the organs, brain, bone, etc.

That was the point I was aiming at, but the context was a lean meat plus fat diet. The point was clarified in the links, along with some percentages of fat and protein.

Doug