Trail Runners Rescued from Mt Lafayette

[Andrew]

See the Union Leader link on my post at the bottom of page one on this thread. Unsure what the leg injury was, they called then got back on trail and canceled the SAR when they reached the hut then descended on their own.

Thanks Mike
Looks like panic, reality check, and then determination. Good for all.

 

[peakbagger]

Given the conditions on Saturday, they most have been out for the experience of dealing with high winds. Madison Col has some shelter from the worst of the winds but it very rapidly changes to no shelter no matter what direction a hiker goes.

 

[SpencerVT]

I have noticed an uptick in foolish unprepared hikers lately.
For example,
I saw 4 dudes the other day - sneakers and jeans, no masks, no snowshoes and deep snow at 3300'. They had no idea what they had gotten into.

I think it's possible COVID is prompting more people to get outside (which is a good thing), but with that, slews of unprepared inexperienced people are taking on things outdoors that they shouldn't.
Saturday was outrageously windy and cold. I have an enormous amount of experience and really good equipment and I wouldn't have ventured up Lafayette Saturday. So foolish.

 

[egilbe]

I have the LaSportiva Blizzard. Excellent studded trail runner that I wear with neoprene socks in winter unless I have to break trail or the weather is sub zero, that’s when I wear boots.

My dog and I are always heading to HoJo’s or if the weather cooperates to the bottom of the bowl in Tucks during the week for a run where I wear these, my tights, and my vest. Luckily, we very rarely hear snide remarks, but I figure that will change as more of these “trail runners” get into trouble.

As for these two guys, from a quick search on Strava, they’re not trail runners. Just because you enter your activity as a run doesn’t make you a trail runner, and even if you are a trail runner that does not make you a mountain runner. No one who calls themself a runner would go up above treeline that day, and if you did, you resort back to your hiking days and bring appropriate gear, including real snowshoes not running snowshoes.

When it comes to running up here in the winter, it all depends on conditions, weather, and having common sense. Running above treeline in winter, you’re lucky to get a few days a month where the weather cooperates and then you have to be sure conditions are safe to run too.

Unfortunately, this winter has been mild, so it has brought the inexperienced up. The small group of trail
runners I know in the area figured it was only a matter of time before trail runners from outside the area would need a rescue causing all kinds of commotion.

Glad these two are alive, hopefully they can share their experiences with others, what their thought process was going into that day and why they didn’t bring essential gear, so others can look to their almost tragic day as a warning.

Finally, and most importantly, incredible job done to save their lives by the National Guard. Outstanding teamwork.

-Chris

With all your experience hiking and running in the WMNF, would you have tried running the Franconia ridge loop this weekend?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

With all your experience hiking and running in the WMNF, would you have tried running the Franconia ridge loop this weekend?

I stayed put Saturday and read The Last Traverse myself On Sunday, I did my annual its-too-cold-for-me-and-Gryffin-up-north winter Pack Monadnock loop, and it was quite chilly there.

Tim

 

[egilbe]

I stayed put Saturday and read The Last Traverse myself On Sunday, I did my annual its-too-cold-for-me-and-Gryffin-up-north winter Pack Monadnock loop, and it was quite chilly there.

Tim

It was borderline Kate Matrosova weather above treeline this weekend. Way too cold and windy for my blood. Those two trail runners are lucky they are not corpses. The two on Madison seemed to be well equipped and managed to self-rescue after one of them broke a snowshoe. I went out Saturday, but had no interest in going above treeline and our planned route limited exposure. Even then we weighed the risks of another water crossing and decided a potential bath wasn't worth it.

 

[dailey7779]

With all your experience hiking and running in the WMNF, would you have tried running the Franconia ridge loop this weekend?

Heck no! If I’m going above treeline I’m only going if the weather is good so I can enjoy it at whatever pace I’m going at solo/group setting. I’m lucky enough to live here so I can cherry pick my days, that being said, when I used to drive here from RI before moving up the same held true.

Common sense goes a long way!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

“I have the LaSportiva Blizzard. Excellent studded trail runner that I wear with neoprene socks”

A short while back, I asked if anyone has used waterproof socks for hiking. The neoprene socks that you mentioned, are they waterproof? Would they perform well for hiking?

I saw a recommendation for these today, elsewhere, posted by a fixture of New England hiking.

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/products/waterproof-cold-weather-mid-length-sock

I make no assertions pro, con, or otherwise

Tim

 

[skiguy]

I saw a recommendation for these today, elsewhere, posted by a fixture of New England hiking.

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/products/waterproof-cold-weather-mid-length-sock

I make no assertions pro, con, or otherwise

Tim

A lot of chatter here about these socks. Maybe it's time for a "Bake Off". Attention Doug Paul. As far as the La Sportivas IMO they look awesome for the given use. Some one likes them because they are all sold out at La Sportiva's site. I don't own these but have had other La Sportiva footwear and have been very happy with all. Can't imagine walking through the snow and weather conditions up there this past weekend barefooted. The term "Snow Snakes" comes to mind. Kudos to Air National Guard!

 

[Mike P.]

The Fish and Game News page has been updated, https://nhfishgame.com/

Three snowmobile accidents, just the two hiking incidents we have been discussing and an ATV accident. It was a busy weekend.

 

[Mac]

It was borderline Kate Matrosova weather above treeline this weekend. Way too cold and windy for my blood. Those two trail runners are lucky they are not corpses. The two on Madison seemed to be well equipped and managed to self-rescue after one of them broke a snowshoe. I went out Saturday, but had no interest in going above treeline and our planned route limited exposure. Even then we weighed the risks of another water crossing and decided a potential bath wasn't worth it.

I remember that weekend. Was there Friday and Saturday, never got above treeline. Woke up Sunday morning to a forecast of minus 65 F windchill at the summit, so went home. Didn't hear about Kate until a day or two later.

 

[dailey7779]

“I have the LaSportiva Blizzard. Excellent studded trail runner that I wear with neoprene socks”

A short while back, I asked if anyone has used waterproof socks for hiking. The neoprene socks that you mentioned, are they waterproof? Would they perform well for hiking?

I wear the Seirus Innovation Windproof Winter Cold Weather NeoSock, which I have bought from Ragged Mountain. They claim to have a combination of windproof, waterproof and breathability.

I don't think they are very breathable, I give them a C grade

Waterproof is good but not the best durability, solid B.

windproof, no idea, they are in my sneaks/boots!

Warmth, A+ for me because my toes are always cold, but once the temps get into the mid 30's they are too warm and my feet sweat and become clammy, which I still don't mind, because it's warm, but I can see that being unappealing to most.

The socks are durable overall, they last all winter and I wear them at least four times a week. Usually after a year of abuse (two snow seasons Nov-Apr) they start to rip at the heel, but I'll still wear them with a light sock as they are still warm but of course not waterproof.

 

[SpencerVT]

I remember that weekend. Was there Friday and Saturday, never got above treeline. Woke up Sunday morning to a forecast of minus 65 F windchill at the summit, so went home. Didn't hear about Kate until a day or two later.

The Kate Matrosova story is so baffling. She had climbed Denali, Elbrus and other massive peaks. But on the day she went into the Presidentials she wasn't carrying snowshoes, a bivy or sleeping bag. It's so perplexing how an extremely experienced climber would omit these items and choose to go out in those conditions in the first place.
Trying to travel super light so you can go fast in the winter is a formula for disaster.

 

[Mike P.]

The Kate Matrosova story is so baffling. She had climbed Denali, Elbrus and other massive peaks. But on the day she went into the Presidentials she wasn't carrying snowshoes, a bivy or sleeping bag. It's so perplexing how an extremely experienced climber would omit these items and choose to go out in those conditions in the first place.
Trying to travel super light so you can go fast in the winter is a formula for disaster.

Kate's case and prior to date, Dr. Dahl who had a couple of big climbs under his belt, he was rescued, were the result of bad decisions, not fitness or talent. Was also debated here back when Kate sadly died.

When you hire a guide, the guide is in charge of all decisions, whether you stay in camp or head uphill. What gear you bring and what stays behind in camp. Fitness and talent alone won't counter bad decisions when the weather gets real nasty. (people in Green Bay are discussing bad decisions and talent today )

For a trip in the Whites, I'd take the advise of those who have years of experience here, (Dave, peakbagger, some others from VFTT's past I still hike with) over someone with limited local knowledge with a resume of big places where others made decisions for them. Some folks I have taken their advice over my own in the past as I knew at times I could be a little summit hungry, planned well, at times over planned the trip itinerary.

 

[skiguy]

The Kate Matrosova story is so baffling. She had climbed Denali, Elbrus and other massive peaks. But on the day she went into the Presidentials she wasn't carrying snowshoes, a bivy or sleeping bag. It's so perplexing how an extremely experienced climber would omit these items and choose to go out in those conditions in the first place.
Trying to travel super light so you can go fast in the winter is a formula for disaster.

I don’t find it baffling whatsoever. First of all having experienced a lot of her success was on guided trips. As mentioned in the book many of the hard decisions were made for her. Going Solo in the Presidential Range in Winter is not the same as being in a guided group. The mind set is totally different. Multiple successes in her past IMO reinforced her behavior to make a lot of the decisions she made. I’ll boil it down to “Learned Success”. In other words getting spanked in the outdoors leads to humility. Secondly her overall experience with the area was minimal. Third she ignored the weather report. I could go on but with all do respect she should have not been there in the first place.RIP

 

[SpencerVT]

Hang on a sec....I get the point that her other big climbs were on guided trips and the hard decisions were made for her.
But don't most, if not all, guided trips involve educational components about safety and decision-making?
In addition, this was a bright person, and even though she wasn't from the area, I would conjecture she had at least heard through the grapevine about Mount Washington's "World's Worst Weather" reputation. Lastly, you said yourself she ignored the weather report. So to me, all of that taken as a whole seems baffling that despite her: a) experience being in harsh environments on guided trips with some climbing safety education, b) knowledge of the weather report, she would nonetheless chose to venture out - and without snowshoes, bivy, etc...That poor unreasoned decision-making just doesn't make sense to me.
Then again, I've definitely made bad decisions before too, but yikes!

 

[egilbe]

Hang on a sec....I get the point that her other big climbs were on guided trips and the hard decisions were made for her.
But don't most, if not all, guided trips involve educational components about safety and decision-making?
In addition, this was a bright person, and even though she wasn't from the area, I would conjecture she had at least heard through the grapevine about Mount Washington's "World's Worst Weather" reputation. Lastly, you said yourself she ignored the weather report. So to me, all of that taken as a whole seems baffling that despite her: a) experience being in harsh environments on guided trips with some climbing safety education, b) knowledge of the weather report, she would nonetheless chose to venture out - and without snowshoes, bivy, etc...That poor unreasoned decision-making just doesn't make sense to me.
Then again, I've definitely made bad decisions before too, but yikes!

A lot of her decision making was compromised by hypothermia. Her type of personality was driven and in the absence of better judgement, she was programmed by nature or upbringing to drive on. Ty Gagne spells it out pretty well in his book. She wasn't practicing self-care, probably didn't want to take the time to hydrate or eat. She was found with 3 full frozen water bottles. Its known that she had those three water bottles, and a thermos that was never found. Once she started that downward spiral, there was no recovering.

 

[skiguy]

Hang on a sec....I get the point that her other big climbs were on guided trips and the hard decisions were made for her.
But don't most, if not all, guided trips involve educational components about safety and decision-making?
In addition, this was a bright person, and even though she wasn't from the area, I would conjecture she had at least heard through the grapevine about Mount Washington's "World's Worst Weather" reputation. Lastly, you said yourself she ignored the weather report. So to me, all of that taken as a whole seems baffling that despite her: a) experience being in harsh environments on guided trips with some climbing safety education, b) knowledge of the weather report, she would nonetheless chose to venture out - and without snowshoes, bivy, etc...That poor unreasoned decision-making just doesn't make sense to me.
Then again, I've definitely made bad decisions before too, but yikes!

Like many accidents and not just outdoors the situation whether in a group or solo can much of the time be traced to the culmination of many small decisions compiling to the big event. A sort of Domino like effect in other words. She was not the first and sadly probably not the last to succumb to this phenomenon. Learning and experiencing is one thing but applying that skill set, especially when your Solo is another thing not to mention in an arena that you are not familiar with. I am not baffled because I see all those small poor decisions logical from the standpoint considering again her lack of experience with the given climb. On topic these Trail Runners were probably reinforced by successful somewhat similar experiences prior to this past weekend’s events leading to what they perceived as good decisions.

 

[Mike P.]

Hang on a sec....I get the point that her other big climbs were on guided trips and the hard decisions were made for her.
But don't most, if not all, guided trips involve educational components about safety and decision-making?
In addition, this was a bright person, and even though she wasn't from the area, I would conjecture she had at least heard through the grapevine about Mount Washington's "World's Worst Weather" reputation. Lastly, you said yourself she ignored the weather report. So to me, all of that taken as a whole seems baffling that despite her: a) experience being in harsh environments on guided trips with some climbing safety education, b) knowledge of the weather report, she would nonetheless chose to venture out - and without snowshoes, bivy, etc...That poor unreasoned decision-making just doesn't make sense to me.
Then again, I've definitely made bad decisions before too, but yikes!

It would depend on the climb and guides, if you are local here, EMS, Chauvin, IME, and your doing a winter Washington trip, sure, their is some education. Same with RMI and Rainier, which is looked on by some as the peak of places they will go, for others as a warm up for Denali. I don't know who her guide was and how many days they were together, or their record either. (more on that later)

In reading Into Thin Air, The Climb and Beck Weather's book, what they seemed to be looking at is can you handle the gear, (John K, commented that some climbers seemed to have difficultly with crampons.) They focused on how to traverse the ladders, how to "hook/tie" into the fixed lines. how to stay hydrated and making sure they are eating well and look out for HAPE/HACE etc. Part of me would think that as a guide, I don't want to educate type A personalities on how to determine weather and what the difference a hard but doable day and how thin that line is between going and not going. You certainly don't want a debate with your clients who you've educated on second guessing you. I know with scout groups and school groups, I was not looking at debating with others, scouts or parents on whether the plan was safe or unsafe & that was just local. A guide doing high altitude trips runs a delicate balance between getting clients to summits and keeping them alive. Bailing too early or having clients die puts you out of business. (The 2nd more tragic and sad)

I have no idea what Kate's summit days were on those big peaks, they do have beautiful days (whatever that means at 18-22K) and a beautiful day on Denali or Aconagua or Elberus is better than a brutal day on the Rockpile.

As for Washington's weather, as we know, that same weather applies to Jefferson, Adams, Madison and Monroe. (It's probably 90-95% the same on Lincoln, Lafayette, South Twin and Moosilauke, Katahdin, Marcy & it's highest neighbors.) I wasn't surprised that someone would get in trouble last weekend on F-Ridge. The hike is immensely popular and few discuss the weather of Lafayette. The alpine zone up there is fairly broad and it's cairns and features are not very distinctive. On the ridge it's narrow but not on Lafayette. I'm unsure how many of the new hikers understand Washington's weather extends to the other higher summits, they just don't have weather observatories on them. (Same as Avalanche danger in Gulf of Slides, Madison Gulf, Great Gulf, along with the Trap Dike and on Wrights and Gothics which by the slides on these peaks should be fairly evident but other than Tucks and Huntington, there is no "official" report.

In Winter I prefer doing the loop by going up OBP and down Falling Waters as I can decide at the Hut whether I go up or down and then again as I get out of the trees before heading for the summit. On the summit you make a decision to go back down or across. If it's okay to cross and then changes on the ridge and isn't so bad that a descent in the pemi is required to save your life, (which meant I picked the wrong day), getting off Little Haystack is easier, either down Falling Waters, which gets back into the trees pretty close to the summit, unlike leaving Lafayette, or staying on the FRT, although much fewer hikers do the ridge between little Haystack and Liberty Springs Trail and descending the rocks can be a bit tricky there, worse IMO than descending Liberty heading to Flume which requires some care in winter. In other seasons, I prefer up Falling Waters but it's not that big a deal.

To piggyback on Skiguy's reply, the worst the weather is, the fewer bad decisions you can make. In fact, they don't even have to be "bad", they just may piggyback with others. (If I hit the trail at 1st light and go past my turnaround time but two lights and extra batteries and know the area & I go past my time by 30 minutes is different, it's different if I get up late, I haven't checked my lights lately & I am looking at a summit sunset) I've seen summer hikers with little gear drinking beer on the C-path late in the afternoon heading up as I was on my way down, they likely got down just fine.

 

[DayTrip]

I saw a recommendation for these today, elsewhere, posted by a fixture of New England hiking.

https://www.sealskinzusa.com/products/waterproof-cold-weather-mid-length-sock

I make no assertions pro, con, or otherwise

Tim

Not a direct comparison but I bought a pair of their waterproof gloves several years ago thinking they'd be good for Winter hiking grabbing snowy trees, etc and while waterproof they were surprisingly ineffective at keeping my hands warm. And they were pretty thick. Only used twice I think before I retired them to the gear closet.