TY Gagne's new book is out (Spoiler Alert!)

[roadtripper]

Thanks for the heads up on this. Added it to the wish list. His first book is the one of the best SAR-related books of all time, anywhere.

 

[bazzert]

Just finished it; terrific read. In particular the chapter on human factors and the discussion on "heuristic traps" was really interesting. Its a concept developed from avalanche accident research.
https://www.summitpost.org/human-factors-in-avalanche-incidents/188636

 

[sierra]

Just finished a virtual Zoom with Gibson Books and the author Ty Gagne and his new book The Last Traverse. I am looking forward to reading the Last Traverse, just finishing, "Where You'll Find Me"

.

I attended that Zoom meeting as well. I was not that impressed and as a result cancelled my book order.

 

[DayTrip]

Just finished it; terrific read. In particular the chapter on human factors and the discussion on "heuristic traps" was really interesting. Its a concept developed from avalanche accident research.
https://www.summitpost.org/human-factors-in-avalanche-incidents/188636

One of the references in Ty's first book was for another book on this topic (another author - not him). I wound up reading and enjoyed. I believe the author called it Type 1 and Type 2 thinking and how the whole way that the vast majority of decisions we make is done on autopilot to save processing power for more important stuff so it doesn't totally bog down the mind and prevent action of any kind. Can lead to many logic traps based on our experiences.

 

[ChrisB]

One of the references in Ty's first book was for another book on this topic (another author - not him). I wound up reading and enjoyed. I believe the author called it Type 1 and Type 2 thinking and how the whole way that the vast majority of decisions we make is done on autopilot to save processing power for more important stuff so it doesn't totally bog down the mind and prevent action of any kind. Can lead to many logic traps based on our experiences.

One way out of that trap is the use of checklists. Not done in hiking but a given in aviation. When things go wrong and don't seem to add up, go to the list for a logical and clear problem solving strategy. Doing so pulls you out of the moment and allows you to get some perspective on the bigger picture.

I also think social pressure is a factor in many accidents. Who wants to be the sissy that first cries wolf? Folks will literally walk off a cliff to avoid that stigma.

I am reading Ty's book now and I find it engaging. His research is thorough and exhaustive. It is heartbreaking that these two victims, who successfully survived so much and came very close to escaping their fate, were overcome in the end. They actually did a lot right.

A sobering story for all of us that venture up high in Winter.

 

[Grey J]

I totally agree with that. I think that is probably the result of one of the hikers surviving and being able to fill in many of the details we were only able to guess at with Kate. I don't know if it was just me too but there were what seemed to me to be some pretty epic blunders by the SAR teams that went out onto Little Haystack from a navigational point of view. Anyone else question some of the things done from a procedural point of view, not so much judgements made?

I just finished the book and thought it was extremely well done and very meticulously detailed. I'm not sure if we can openly discuss it yet but it has been out for a month now. While the search of the summit of Little Haystack was not perfectly coordinated, I am curious as to what you characterized as "epic blunders . . from a navigational point of view." I thought they did well to find both hikers given the absolutely horrendous conditions.

 

[Grey J]

I attended that Zoom meeting as well. I was not that impressed and as a result cancelled my book order.

Hey Sierra, what did you hear at that Zoom meeting that soured you on the book and caused you to cancel your order?

 

[Grey J]

One of the heroes, or central figures, in Kate's story becomes a victim in this story. We all make mistakes when we are younger. We call them learning experiences when we are older.

I keep wanting to turn the heat up in the house thinking about these two books.

Who is that? A hero in the Matrosova book that becomes a victim in this story? Although I read it, I don't have the Matrosova book to reference. Are you referring to Ober?
I know what you mean about wanting to turn up the heat. Wind chills of -50* to -60* sent a shiver up my spine every time I started a new chapter.

One final comment: Perhaps because they were not involved in the actual rescue, Tim Martel and Steve Dupuis (MRS 3) did not receive enough recognition (imo) for their heroic efforts to reach the scene that night. They were the only team to complete a loop hike over a 1.8 mile stretch of Franconia Ridge, breaking trail in deep snow until their descent down Falling Waters Trail. The other teams all turned around or, in the case of MRS 1, were helicoptered out. An 8 mile night hike under these conditions was an incredible feat of strength, endurance, and determination.

 

[ChrisB]

Who is that? A hero in the Matrosova book that becomes a victim in this story? Although I read it, I don't have the Matrosova book to reference. Are you referring to Ober?
I know what you mean about wanting to turn up the heat. Wind chills of -50* to -60* sent a shiver up my spine every time I started a new chapter.

One final comment: Perhaps because they were not involved in the actual rescue, Tim Martel and Steve Dupuis (MRS 3) did not receive enough recognition (imo) for their heroic efforts to reach the scene that night. They were the only team to complete a loop hike over a 1.8 mile stretch of Franconia Ridge, breaking trail in deep snow until their descent down Falling Waters Trail. The other teams all turned around or, in the case of MRS 1, were helicoptered out. An 8 mile night hike under these conditions was an incredible feat of strength, endurance, and determination.

Just finished reading the book and agree on all counts. A couple of observations and questions:

1. Would an ICU nurse really tell a patient who briefly surfaced from a coma his friend was dead? Was this exchange fabricated for drama sake?

2. Ober -- is carrying a 75 pound pack really useful under these circumstances or a mistake?

3. How come there are so few tall cairns on Franci Ridge for use in low/no visibility?

4. Apparently FW trail junction is hard to find in winter. Martel found it due to ice ax left behind by others. Better signage needed?

Regarding number 4, there have been several winter accidents due to inability to locate a trail as it drops below treeline into scrub. Southern end of Crawford Path and Ammo below Lakes Hut are two that come to mind. Are there others?

Finally, that Obs wind plot that showed the wind going from 30 to 70 mph in three minutes was amazing. These poor guys were very unlucky.

 

[skiguy]

Finally, that Obs wind plot that showed the wind going from 30 to 70 mph in three minutes was amazing. These poor guys were very unlucky.

Kudos to the SAR teams. Much like Kate M. they should have not been there in the first place.

 

[maineguy]

Just finished reading the book and agree on all counts. A couple of observations and questions:

4. Apparently FW trail junction is hard to find in winter. Martel found it due to ice ax left behind by others. Better signage needed?

Regarding number 4, there have been several winter accidents due to inability to locate a trail as it drops below treeline into scrub. Southern end of Crawford Path and Ammo below Lakes Hut are two that come to mind. Are there others?

That is why winter loops, particularly above treeline, are not recommended. Can't remember which specific AMC publication or article I read this in, but it is sound advice.

 

[egilbe]

That is why winter loops, particularly above treeline, are not recommended. Can't remember which specific AMC publication or article I read this in, but it is sound advice.

I read that somewhere, too. Always come down the same trail you went up. That way you have some familiarity with the trail. Although with darkness and drifting snow, you still may not be able to find the trail back down.

I still want to do Washington in the Winter. Its on my bucket list. When the weather is nice enough to be above treeline, something always comes up, or I lack the ambition on that particular day.

 

[DayTrip]

I just finished the book and thought it was extremely well done and very meticulously detailed. I'm not sure if we can openly discuss it yet but it has been out for a month now. While the search of the summit of Little Haystack was not perfectly coordinated, I am curious as to what you characterized as "epic blunders . . from a navigational point of view." I thought they did well to find both hikers given the absolutely horrendous conditions.

Yah maybe that was a bit heavy handed. The effort was obviously amazing in the conditions and I was trying not to be too specific and be a "spoiler" for Tim. . What I thought was singularly odd was that they all took off above tree line without flagging or marking in some way the notoriously difficult entry back into the scrub at the top of the Falling Waters Trail, especially in that weather and in the dark. I would have thought they'd have designated someone to wait there, hang a headlamp on a tree or something for fast and safe re-entry to the trail and relative safety. The book makes numerous references to the challenge of this and no doubt all of the SAR people were well aware of the frequency of incidents with people failing to find the trail and yet off they all went. The book even emphasizes how lucky they were to see the ice axe left coincidently by the other party for the same reason. Just thought that was a big blunder for a SAR crew to make. I would have expected a different procedure like placing wands or light sticks or something from a SAR crew. That's all. So "epic" was probably a bad choice of word.

 

[DayTrip]

One final comment: Perhaps because they were not involved in the actual rescue, Tim Martel and Steve Dupuis (MRS 3) did not receive enough recognition (imo) for their heroic efforts to reach the scene that night. They were the only team to complete a loop hike over a 1.8 mile stretch of Franconia Ridge, breaking trail in deep snow until their descent down Falling Waters Trail. The other teams all turned around or, in the case of MRS 1, were helicoptered out. An 8 mile night hike under these conditions was an incredible feat of strength, endurance, and determination.

That stood out to me as well. Thought that was a bit odd. It was like "Oh yeah. And these two guys also came in the other way but they didn't do anything".

 

[DayTrip]

That is why winter loops, particularly above treeline, are not recommended. Can't remember which specific AMC publication or article I read this in, but it is sound advice.

As a solo hiker I used to avoid loops initially in Winter having read similar advice. Now that I am more familiar with most of the trails in the Whites I worry about that a lot less but I still tend to do out and backs when I visit new areas.

 

[peakbagger]

I have paused at Haystack numerous times on nice winter days and imagined worse conditions and trying to find the fairly narrow slot that goes in the woods. Its not that easy unless there are foot prints. There has been an attempt to try to scree wall a path up through this area mostly to try to corral hikers onto one trail bed(given the perpetual crowding on Haystack its a futile effort). There has been a couple of cairns that have been built up but in W or NW winds its difficult as the snow tends to fill in fairly narrow opening and the wind is coming directly at the face. The grade for some reason always wants to encourage me to go right of the opening.

Skookumchuck trail is somewhat infamous for being hard to find the entrance back into the woods. Its generally recommended to do it CW so that its not an issue.

 

[kmac]

It’s Grand Central Station on Haystack in the summer and fall months. The scree wall is probably not so visible in the winter, but I know the AMC Alpine steward program tries very hard to keep that scree wall maintained.

 

[Grey J]

Yah maybe that was a bit heavy handed. The effort was obviously amazing in the conditions and I was trying not to be too specific and be a "spoiler" for Tim. . What I thought was singularly odd was that they all took off above tree line without flagging or marking in some way the notoriously difficult entry back into the scrub at the top of the Falling Waters Trail, especially in that weather and in the dark. I would have thought they'd have designated someone to wait there, hang a headlamp on a tree or something for fast and safe re-entry to the trail and relative safety. The book makes numerous references to the challenge of this and no doubt all of the SAR people were well aware of the frequency of incidents with people failing to find the trail and yet off they all went. The book even emphasizes how lucky they were to see the ice axe left coincidently by the other party for the same reason. Just thought that was a big blunder for a SAR crew to make. I would have expected a different procedure like placing wands or light sticks or something from a SAR crew. That's all. So "epic" was probably a bad choice of word.

Fair enough, and you do make a good point. Given the difficulty of finding the entrance to Falling Waters Trail even in good weather, it is surprising that the team did not have a better, pre-ordained plan for marking it in such extreme conditions with such bad visibility. The ice ax sounded like an impromptu marker and it was simply good fortune (apparently) that no one collected it. Otherwise, Martel and Dupuis might have had a much harder time finding their safe exit.

 

[Grey J]

2. Ober -- is carrying a 75 pound pack really useful under these circumstances or a mistake?

As someone who's been exclusively a day hiker for over 30 years now, I probably carry only around 20 lbs on a typical hike, most of which is water. What is a typical load for a backpacker? 75 lbs sounded really extreme to me too. Kind of like trying to carry a piano up the mountain. Plus he was breaking trail in the snow most of the way. No wonder the guy was totally spent.

 

[egilbe]

For a 10 day backpacking trip in the HMW, I carried 40 pounds, most of which was food. A typical overnight is 25 pounds. For a Winter backpacking trip, it could be as high as 35 pounds. I figure if Ober was carrying cold weather gear for two people and knowing that my backpacking stuff is lighter weight than what was available 15 years ago, 75 pounds doesn't seem too unreasonable. I think there is a video of what the SAR teams carry now and its around 55 pounds. Even that, I think, is crazy heavy.