Ultra Runner Search and Rescue in the Pemi

[DayTrip]

SAR is "Search AND RESCUE" after all. So if a SAR organization gets involved then.....

What PVSAR said in the article was that "a search response was initiated". I guess based on what the search turns up determines if there is a "rescue" required or they can call it off. Even if they just walked out with the person and chatted it was some level of assistance provided. A "rescue" is defined (in the dictionary) as "an act of saving or being saved from danger or distress" so I don't think that it applies in this case. There was a danger of exposure/hypothermia with the lack of cold weather gear but the person was not in any distress.

But ultimately as peakbagger explained in detail, the SAR organization fielded an inquiry, initiated all of its protocols for a search and possible rescue, and spent time and money on a response. I'm sure internally this is indeed termed a "rescue" for their purposes. They need to call it something and on most occasions these sort of events do turn into rescues. Just a box on a form as peakbagger described. Gotta check something. I'm not sure why Yuri is so incensed about it being called a rescue. Possibly he knows this person and objects to the characterization that they needed help? I certainly took no negative impression of the person based on what I read just because SAR was dispatched. I was pretty impressed.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Sounds like just the search half of a search and rescue. Rescue implies he was saved from imminent danger. He was walking a road at dusk.

 

[Yury]

Looks like a rescue to me.

"the run took him longer than he expected. Naimie was otherwise uninjured."

Does this phrase in the official report imply that he has completed this run on his own without any assistance?

 

[maineguy]

Sure it's a "rescue" by F&G definition, but not by the standard definition:

 

[jrcinnh]

Just opinion, but not being "rescued" is a point of pride for hikers. I led a hike once, Adams/Madison via Kings, took hours longer than expected. A group member's adult son got nervous that his mom was late and headed up Valley way. Met us less than mile from Appalachia and rescued us.

 

[peakbagger]

I agree, if using the strict primary dictionary definition, it may not have been a Rescue, even though S&R assets were deployed. In my original title, I was working with the Patch article which was lacking details when I created and titled the thread. On the other hand, common usage of the term rescue is far more broad. I hear the term used frequently to describe general acts of assistance, I.E. "He rescued me from a boring conversation at a party", "she rescued me with a cup of coffee when I didnt have the time to stop and pick one up", "they rescued me from not being able to drink by lending me a few bucks".

Of course, if we arguing semantics, if a hypothetical victim is found deceased, does it remain only a Search as the searchers did not Rescue the deceased from a dangerous of distressing situation? At that point, it becomes a Retrieval and the event should be called a Search, Attempted Rescue and subsequent Retrieval . In any case the same acronym, S&R, might be applicable.

If Yuri wants to fight semantics, I will let him continue on elsewhere. If there is additional information on the "event" or folks wants to continue on discussing the appropriateness of contacting F&G and activating PVSAR for a meet and greet on the East Side Trail, have at it.

 

[skiguy]

Having been the subject of a call to the state police one evening when my hiking partners wife called even though he had told her we would coming home very late mostly likely around midnight and my own call for to 911 two and half years ago I have had my brushes with the rescue system. In the first case the protocols were not well developed and somehow someone from RMC, Bill Arnold, got in the loop and called AMC who radioed Zealand Hut and asked if they had seen us come through on our way out. We were doing the Bonds (in winter) and had stayed at the Zealand the night before and stopped by to warm up a bit before heading to RT 302 that night. The AMC hut crew said yes they had seen us and that were going to get out late probably around midnight so and they called off the rescue. I did not learn about this call until the next day. My hiking partner was very careful and precise in the future on when to call.

In the recent case with a broken and dislocated ankle, I called 911 and eventually got to Glen Lucas of F&G, he was asking if he could drive up the ski slope at Wildcat when I suggested that he call the ski patrol folks working at the summit that I had passed who were working to get set up for ski season operations. He called them and I caught a ride with them on the ATV down to the ambulance. I never saw officer Lucas but no doubt I am in some F&G log. I had a hike safe card and expect I would not have been billed. It did not make the F&G website so my assumption was this was written off as public assistance during working hours. I expect the ultra runner rescue ate up a lot more resources after hours than my broken ankle.

I have had awareness training of the incident command system and have sat through a large FEMA drill with a participant. It is used in many places and expect the F&G S&R uses it. In any case there has to be an incident before the system engages. There will be protocols in place to establish what an incident is and there are only two boxes, yes or no. There are no maybe's, if in doubt its a yes. Something folks might recognize from numerous movies and TV shows is when someone in a plane in trouble calls out on the radio to air traffic control, air traffic control comes back "Do you wish to declare an emergency?". They will keep asking until they get a yes or a no. Once a yes is received then the Incident Command system gets activated and there are previously agreed upon protocols that are used until the case is resolved. In the case of the runner, whomever contacted F&G declared an emergency whether they knew it or not.

Very well explained. Thank you for the clarifications.

 

[skiguy]

I agree, if using the strict primary dictionary definition, it may not have been a Rescue, even though S&R assets were deployed. In my original title, I was working with the Patch article which was lacking details when I created and titled the thread. On the other hand, common usage of the term rescue is far more broad. I hear the term used frequently to describe general acts of assistance, I.E. "He rescued me from a boring conversation at a party", "she rescued me with a cup of coffee when I didnt have the time to stop and pick one up", "they rescued me from not being able to drink by lending me a few bucks".

Of course, if we arguing semantics, if a hypothetical victim is found deceased, does it remain only a Search as the searchers did not Rescue the deceased from a dangerous of distressing situation? At that point, it becomes a Retrieval and the event should be called a Search, Attempted Rescue and subsequent Retrieval . In any case the same acronym, S&R, might be applicable.

If Yuri wants to fight semantics, I will let him continue on elsewhere. If there is additional information on the "event" or folks wants to continue on discussing the appropriateness of contacting F&G and activating PVSAR for a meet and greet on the East Side Trail, have at it.

When Googling "What is the difference between a Search and a Rescue this was the primary answer given: "Search involves locating victims and documenting their location. Rescue involves the procedures and methods required to extricate the victims".

 

[TCD]

Maybe we can leave the semantics behind? What a massive sidetrack!

Still no more detail on "...had lost his light source..."

Maybe the sun went down? We all "lose a light source" very predictably every day when that happens.

Regardless of the weather or what other gear he had, the report suggests that "...had lost his light source..." was the driver behind him being overdue, and thus the call to Fish and Game. And yet the details of this remain a complete mystery...

 

[peakbagger]

The big factor to me was the temperature profile the day of the event. 60 plus degrees at 5 PM and in the forties soon after dark. I was out on the AT in Connecticut at a campsite Friday evening and we were piling on the gear as the temps dropped quickly post sundown. An ultrarunner is not going to have a lot of body fat and is probably going to very effective at thermal regulation while running but if the runner has to slow down to a crawl due to lack of light, odds are they are starting to get chilled quick. Sure, some sort of lightweight reflective mylar used at many races might help marginally but at some point R value clothing or external heating will be needed to keep the core temp up. When I am out on the more remote trails in the whites, Like Shoal, Thoreau and Franconia Brook, the trail runners I encounter have very minimal packs, basically a hydration pack with some added volume. I cannot envision that they are carrying enough gear to stay warm for several hours if they are stationary.

 

[sierra]

Kind of a "soft" rescue. The guy got help, however minimal, how it's classified is probably a debate with little value. Personally, as soon as SAR shows up, that's a rescue to me, if you don't need a "rescue" don't touch the phone and get your Ass out on your own. Tell wifey to wait 12 hours from the I'll be home time, so you can navigate without a light source, sounds to me like he was a shoo in to make it out on his own.
On a side note, I always find the discussion on how much gear to carry an interesting one. I carry a decent pack at all times. Do I feel the weight sometimes and wish it was lighter? yes, but not to the point where I am ready to leave any of it behind. A little while ago, I hiked with a girl I met online, she is somewhat of a runner, including trail running. The only time I have run, is when a cop was chasing me, anywho, back to the topic. She showed up with one of those runners packs, very little capacity, I had my Mystery Ranch scree 32l, which I always have year-round. We ran into some unpredicted weather up high and I mentally had a dilemma going on. If the weather hits us (and it did) do I offer her my shell as a act of chivalry or just put it on myself and let her deal with her choice of going ultra-light? I decided on the wearing it myself and was dry and snug in my 3-layer shell. Probably why I'm still single.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Maybe we can leave the semantics behind? What a massive sidetrack!

Still no more detail on "...had lost his light source..."

Maybe the sun went down? We all "lose a light source" very predictably every day when that happens.

Regardless of the weather or what other gear he had, the report suggests that "...had lost his light source..." was the driver behind him being overdue, and thus the call to Fish and Game. And yet the details of this remain a complete mystery...

He was located on a maintained road 15 minutes after dusk. He was probably already on that road by the time darkness set in. Considering a blind person could easily successfully navigate that stretch, I don't understand blaming the light.

 

[TCD]

Well, I don't understand it either. But F&G seems to be making it a factor in their report.

 

[dave.m]

Where was his satellite messaging device?

My kid sends us "I'm ending my trip" messages from his InReach most nights (my wife would prefer every night) from the AT.

I send my wife "I'm checking in" messages from mine when hunting in remote spots, particularly if I'm walking out after dark.

They can prevent unnecessary rescues as well initiating necessary ones.

@Yury, someone kick your dog or sumthin?

 

[Beckie and Prema]

Two lights are one, and one is none.

I found myself with four headlamps on a hike last year. My main one; a backup; a cheap spare to give away if needed; and a fourth I'd had on at the car and forgot to take off.

Sounds like something Prema and I would do. You never know who'd going to need one!

 

[NHClimber]

Sounds like something Prema and I would do. You never know who'd going to need one!

I always carry an extra pack that is filled only with headlamps. I like to be prepared…

 

[Yury]

@Yury, someone kick your dog or sumthin?

@dave.m , could you please translate your question into English?

 

[JoshandBaron]

Where was his satellite messaging device?

My kid sends us "I'm ending my trip" messages from his InReach most nights (my wife would prefer every night) from the AT.

I send my wife "I'm checking in" messages from mine when hunting in remote spots, particularly if I'm walking out after dark.

They can prevent unnecessary rescues as well initiating necessary ones.

@Yury, someone kick your dog or sumthin?

I don't have much faith in those working very well on the the type of route he was on. I spent a night low on Moosilauke a couple weeks back and none of my messages went through. It's not uncommon on my Pemi valley trips for a lot of failures to occur. It happens more frequently than I would like, but conditions for failure are pretty consistent. Those conditions just happen to be a typical campsite for me. The first time it happened, 10 years ago, my camp was crashed by the Carrol police. I wonder if that was a rescue...

 

[TCD]

Where was his satellite messaging device?

Another very good question. In the F&G report, it's not discussed whether or not he had any kind of messaging device.

I don't do anything solo nearly as ambitious as his trip, but I do often go solo. I always carry my old InReach (it's the last "DeLorme" model, now operated by Garmin). I carry it as a backup; never had to use the "SOS" function. But I use the "All OK" preset message all the time. And at least over here in the Adirondacks, I have never (in hundreds of messages) had a message not go through. The worst performance issue I have seen (in tight woods, near cliffs, etc.) is variation in how long it takes a message to go through, varying from almost immediate to a worst case of about 15 minutes.

I'm glad this person was always "All OK."

 

[NorthShore]

I agree, if using the strict primary dictionary definition, it may not have been a Rescue, even though S&R assets were deployed. In my original title, I was working with the Patch article which was lacking details when I created and titled the thread. On the other hand, common usage of the term rescue is far more broad. I hear the term used frequently to describe general acts of assistance, I.E. "He rescued me from a boring conversation at a party", "she rescued me with a cup of coffee when I didnt have the time to stop and pick one up", "they rescued me from not being able to drink by lending me a few bucks".

Of course, if we arguing semantics, if a hypothetical victim is found deceased, does it remain only a Search as the searchers did not Rescue the deceased from a dangerous of distressing situation? At that point, it becomes a Retrieval and the event should be called a Search, Attempted Rescue and subsequent Retrieval . In any case the same acronym, S&R, might be applicable.

If Yuri wants to fight semantics, I will let him continue on elsewhere. If there is additional information on the "event" or folks wants to continue on discussing the appropriateness of contacting F&G and activating PVSAR for a meet and greet on the East Side Trail, have at it.

If the subject is found deceased, we call it a recovery. But retrieval is an appropriate description.