Vose Spur and Abraham (ME) rock fields - scree or talus?

[marty]

Calling all VFTT geology mavens:

I just whacked Vose Spur a couple of days ago (with Larry D and Ray). I assumed that the rock field that we encountered was scree. This was because the rocks were not especially large and because others have used this term in their Vose Spur trip reports. I found the rock fields of Mt. Abraham (ME) to be very similar.

I recently viewed a TR on another hiking website and the author referred to the rock field as talus. This got me thinking. What is the difference betwen talus and scree?

I checked several on line dictionaries and got conflicting results with scree versus talus distinctions. Some dictionaries actually said they were the same.

My questions to everyone are:
(1) Are the Vose Spur and Abraham (ME) rock fields scree or talus?
(2) What is the difference between scree and talus?

Thanks,
Marty

 

[bobandgeri]

The words are somewhat interchangeable:

See this definition on Wikipedia

Typically scree refers to small rocks, the size of gravel whiel talus is given to larger rocks such as those on Vose Spur.

 

[jniehof]

"Scree!" is the sound you make when you go plunge-stepping down it

 

[weatherman]

Scree gets into your boots, talus doesn't (unless you have size 15+ feet... )

 

[marty]

"Scree!" is the sound you make when you go plunge-stepping down it

So, when the rocks shift when you step on talus, the sound is "talus, talus", "talus". Got it
-------
Thanks everyone for the education! Much appreciated.

Marty

 

[nartreb]

Probably neither.

Scree is a thin layer of loose, unstable small rocks (often flattened in shape) lying on a slope. Take an unwary step on scree and you will end up skidding downlope. ("Scree" is a Scandinavian word meaning something like "skid" or "skitter".) I've never seen "small enough to fit into your boot" written anywhere before, but I like it.

Talus, strictly defined, is a jumbled heap of boulders _at the base of a cliff_ from which it has broken off. Talus forms a big pile with roughly forty-five degree slopes, leaning against a cliff like a glacis on a fortification (the word "talus" literally means "earthwork").

What I mostly recall on Mt Abraham (I haven't trodden on Vose Spur) was felsenmeer (German: "sea of rocks"). That's boulders that have split from the bedrock and then remained in place. Well, some of them formed rockslides (the trail crosses some), but most of them are sitting right on top of the mountain.

summit photo: most rocks too big to be scree

Some of the smaller debris on Abraham's slopes might qualify as scree (the definition of scree is just size and present location - see slopes in background - not sure how small the rocks are ) , and some areas at the base of the slides along the trail might be called talus if you want to stretch the definition, but the reason you see some people call the whole thing scree and some people call it talus, is that both sound like cool alpine words, but neither is exactly right.

 

[dr_wu002]

What I mostly recall on Mt Abraham (I haven't trodden on Vose Spur) was felsenmeer (German: "sea of rocks").

...

but the reason you see some people call the whole thing scree and some people call it talus, is that both sound like cool alpine words, but neither is exactly right.

I think you're right. However, I think at this point the majority of people you're going to meet hiking in the mountains will know what "talus field" means but not "felsenmeer." Talus field is also probably easier to say. I think this is one of those situations where the dictionary says one thing but the public has collectively modified the word "talus" or "talus field" to mean something else. I could be wrong but I think that most people think of the rocks on Vose Spur or Abraham or even Washington or any of the slides as "talus" and at what point is the dictionary simply outdated? People tend to use "scree" when they're talking about looser, baseball sized rocks that you slide all around on if you're not careful.

I realize that these aren't the dictionary definitions but I think it's neat how language shifts and cultures will fairly rapidly modify words to suit their needs. I could be wrong but I don't think you're going to hear "felsenmeer" a lot...

-Dr. Wu

 

[Papa Bear]

I always used talus as what falls from a cliff and piles up at the bottom (see the Palisades for a 15 mile long example). Thus Abraham's rocks are certainly not Talus. Like the top of Washington, they are Felsenmeer, which is a German alpine term for rocks formed from the effects of the freeze/thaw cycle above tree line.

Although "General Usage" is nice to know, I like to think we can do better among a community like this board. So call it Felsenmeer, or if you don't like foreign words, call it rocks, but not Talus. If someone asks "What's that", educate them!

As for Vose Spur, that's an interesting case. I would say the area has been exposed by a slide, and it may be Felsenmeer, but I'm not sure because the conditions and the exposure is not that "Alpine" which roughly means above tree line. Call it an old slide. Or maybe a geologist will know a better word. But (IMO) it's neither scree nor talus. (Even though I've called it a "Talus Slope" occasionally).

 

[dr_wu002]

So call it Felsenmeer, or if you don't like foreign words, call it rocks, but not Talus. If someone asks "What's that", educate them!

I'm tired of "educating" people and tired of being "educated." If people call it talus then it is. I can give a rats ass what the dictionary says.

-Dr. Wu

 

[DougPaul]

Language and conventions changes.

True. However, scree and talus are technical words with specific meanings to a geologist. Common usage may differ from usage by experts. Common usage is often loosely derived from the technical usage, but technical usage is not usually based upon or altered by the common usage.

A recent example is the word "exponential". It refers a specific mathematical function (widely known for many years to those with even a moderate mathematical background) but seems to have recently entered common usage to be mean large or quickly with emphasis. Example: "It grew exponentially." But common usage would not distinguish that from "it grew by a power" whereas mathematical usage would.

Doug

 

[RoySwkr]

Hikers often make a distinction in the size of the rocks hence what it might be like to walk across it which is useful to them but not necessarily to geologists.

"Glossary of Selected Geologic Terms" by Stokes and Varnes makes no size distinction. TALUS is "an accumulated heap of rock fragments derived from and lying at the base of a cliff or very steep slope" and "may be large or small". SCREE "is a more inclusive term...also includes loose material lying on slopes without cliffs."

So I guess it's always safe to call it scree talking to geologists but hikers will want you to call it talus if the rocks are large

 

[Papa Bear]

I'm tired of "educating" people and tired of being "educated." If people call it talus then it is. I can give a rats ass what the dictionary says.

-Dr. Wu

year, your prolly rite

 

[DougPaul]

"Glossary of Selected Geologic Terms" by Stokes and Varnes makes no size distinction. TALUS is "an accumulated heap of rock fragments derived from and lying at the base of a cliff or very steep slope" and "may be large or small". SCREE "is a more inclusive term...also includes loose material lying on slopes without cliffs."

I did a bit of looking around. Some of the more technically-oriented references seem to treat the words as synonymous. Some of the less technically oriented references did distinguish based upon size.

Doug

 

[marty]

Well, this is as clear as felsenmeer.

Maybe I should just call them rocks, or is stones the more correct term? Never mind, that's for another thread.

Thanks for all the responses. I am now enlightened.

Regards,
Marty

 

[Craig]

Keep em comin

This certainly isn’t a new debate. Folks have been discussing the size difference between scree and talus for year.

I’ll throw in my 2 cent distinction.

If the rocks consistently move under foot when stepped on; it’s scree.
If the rocks don’t; it’s talus.