When to share, and when not to......

[arghman]

interesting thread...

Our town was given a landlocked parcel of land last year by an out-of-state landowner who was tired of paying taxes. Well it turns out this parcel has a very unique natural area with, among other things, pitch pines, and it also offers fairly good views.

This past April I went with another friend of mine (we are both on the Conservation Commission) to look for spring wildflowers, and we found a still-smoking firepit at the viewpoint, with a number of white pine & pitch pine trees either cut down or with branches hacked off to use as fuel.
I guess the wrong people already know about this spot, but at this point I will not advertise its location; it's unfortunate, since if you get enough "good" people to regularly visit an area, it can help discourage the "bad" people. Also a shame since this is public land and people should have the right to enjoy it.
(In a fitting irony, the pitch pines are resprouting and this abuse is giving them a slight competitive edge over the white pines.)

An extreme case of this sort is up on Rock Rimmon on the west side of Manchester, where you find all sorts of broken glass at the top, sigh.

I would hope that making people do their own homework to visit a good spot, would tend to tilt the balance toward people who are more likely to respect that spot, but I'm skeptical.

 

[Tramper Al]

Thank you

In discussing this please spare us remarks about who is “worthy” and who is “unworthy”. . .

Yeah, I have to agree with Grumpy on this.

Selfishly guarding secret wilderness spots is one thing. Doing so under the guise that one is somehow superior to the unworthy 'masses' is quite another.

 

[masshysteria]

Here's my two cents worth. I have a friend who is a serious spelunker. Knows every solutional cave, every talus cave, every leaning rock that someone wants to call a cave, in the Northeast. However, and I don't want to generalize about cavers, he and other cavers he associates with are somewhat reluctant to share info with other people. Especially other cavers. As my friend told me once, he didn't want to share the fruits of his hard labors with other cavers. 'Information is power' is his favorite saying! He is not alone in this opinion. Again, I don't want to stereotype all cavers, I'm just stating what his philosophy is. There was a post on VFTT a couple of months ago with regard to a question about a cave formation in the area. I PMed the writer, and gave her the name of my friend, and suggested she write him with the question. He wouldn't return an answer to her, which p...ed me off.

The first time I went to the Amp on Basin, I was questioned by a rock climber about the climbability of it. The first question was if I minded anybody doing 'my route'. I don't climb so it's not 'my route'. I know climbers like to be the first to find a new route, climb it, and give it a name. I've looked in Don Mellor's book enough to see that climbing seems to be a shared sport. For a while, I was hesitant to share my knowledge of the Basin Amp with too many people, I wasn't sure the area could survive the impact of many boots. But in retrospect, there isn't going to be a mass exodus to it, there's not going to be a herd path to it, it will survive intact just fine. If someone wants to know how to get there, I'll tell them. But I will also tell them that it is a serious undertaking, and to think twice about it.

Will the internet lead to the spoiling of more un-spoiled areas, by making their existence more accesible to hikers? Yeah, it will. Will it lead to spoiling areas that are pristine? I honestly doubt it. The dificulty of getting to most of these places will keep 95% of people out, and the 5% that do know how to walk softly anyway. I guess that's what my feeling is, that if you don't want to share info with someone because you don't trust their wilderness ethics, then keep it hush-hush. But please don't fall into the mind set that information is power, and power is best controlled by the few.

With that being said, I will say that the anology of the fishing hole is interesting. I caught a 22 lb Northern Pike this summer while fishing in a 'secret spot' that I know about. I showed everybody the pictures and told the stories. My lips were sealed as to the location. I want to go back and catch his 30 lb grandfather! Now that's being selfish!

 

[Peakbagr]

Sorry, I have to agree with Peakbagr. There are lots of great folks on the hiking boards. Some I've met and others I correspond with. There are also some that shouldn't be given the route to Marcy Dam.

Lets not paint this as an elitist thing. Its about stewardship of the mountains we love. And yes, as anti-egalitarian as it sounds, there are those shouldn't be entrusted with a roadmap to the gems. Those of us who don't provide those roadmaps don't attempt to decide who should or shouldn't go. Its done by not posting the particulars.

 

[Warren]

Sorry, I have to agree with Peakbagr.

No need to apologize, agreement with oneself is a sign of mental well being. It's kind of odd you need to post it here, but that's OK.

As to elitism and what not, this past summer I found out something that I've been tossing around my head a while. If you want to go paddle camping on the Maine island Trail or on Lake Champlain you have to join the association to get the guide book on the sites. Where the sites are owned by the association you're expected to have that years book with you. When you join the association you don't become a club member, you become a steward. It's elitist to some degree, yes, but it passes the "it feels right" test.

I find this whole idea really interesting and I wonder if by placing the title and the responsibility upon a person you promote better behavior when using a resource.

As for those not worried about an increase in off trail travel creating a noticeable effect, the ADKs have undergone a change in this regard. I don't think other places are immune to it, I just think the ADKs have crappier soil.

 

[Peakbagr]

Warren,

Just having a little fun, but I'm probably the last person to be described as being the poster child for good mental health.

 

[TCD]

My wife and I were talking about this a little this weekend, and then, what do you know, this thread appears!

SO... I'll throw in my 2 cents also:

First, let's separate private from public land. On private, what the landowner says regarding travel, goes. Period. If the landowner says "no" then that's it. (I'm curious to know if the Maine Islands are OWNED by "the association." If they are, then any rules they want to impose about visiting them is their call. If they are public land, it's different.)

On public land, we now have joint ownership, and a stewardship issue for any of us going there arises.

Within that issue, let's separate "environmental damage" from "aesthetic damage." All the foot travel in the mountains does very little or no environmental damage, when you look a the scale of the wilderness. Most trails, and even camping areas, cannot be seen from the air. Try to see the Garden parking lot from Baxter sometime. The parking lot could be argued to be a huge environmental scar, and yet it is tiny, barely able to be located. How much tinier are trails? Even a trail eroded into a waist deep trench does no "environmental" damage at all.

Now if a hiker starts a forest fire, that's damage. But that's not what we're talking about here.

So this thread is about aesthetics. The bottom line of "stewardship" on this thread is this:

Those of who go to these places want them to look nice when we get there. Now it's a given that each person leaves some trace of passage, despite his or her best effort. So by saying that spots should be kept secret, aren't we saying "Finders keepers, losers weepers?" Might we not be saying "I found this first, and I don't want anyone else to find it?"

We have to be very careful of elitism here. Remember it's public land, for everyone to enjoy.

No one can force you to tell about your favorite spot, but no one can force you to keep it secret, either.

TCD

 

[Neil]

Very,very well said TCD.

When I went 2 wks ago, the ''route'' up to Bennie's Brook Slide was starting to turn into a herd path. The ''environment'' however has not suffered from the passage of boots. Some people might not like it that the 3/4 mile walk to the slide base has a pleasant forest path leading the way but that path is starting to form, right now. To me it means that more people are enjoying something different and outstandingly beautiful.

However, I totally agree that those secret gems discovered by the odd bushwhacker can remain secret or be shared only with close friends. It has absolutely SFA to do with elitism. Your bang on when you say it's about aesthetics though. An energy bar wrapper on the ground is ugly but it dosn't hurt the ecology.

 

[Peakbagr]

If I recall, this began when Tim started a thread about whether its a good idea to post descriptions of sensitive or little visited spots all of us run across sometimes. I guess I don't follow why its elitist to feel that wide dissemination on the internet will spoil the very charm of those lucky locales?
As I explained to Tim in a PM before this thread started, I will always feel guilty for helping to publicize a winter route we did in the 80's. That route ended up becoming the trade route(winter and summer) up a trailless peak.

Theres a big difference between starting a thread to discuss whether its a good idea for folks to do this, and turning the discussion upside down into elitism. Most of these nice little places are happened on accidentally, or because they look like something nice on a map. For the most part, there are so many other places to explore, I don't return in person, just revisit the day in my head. It is valid that some folks are concerned that heavier traffic will crush the moss, start a herdpath, flag the route or crap next to a stream.

I also guess I missed where someone mentioned "forcing" anyone to do anything. With this, I think I'll try to retire from from further hogging this thread.

 

[Periwinkle]

I guess I don't follow why its elitist to feel that wide dissemination on the internet will spoil the very charm of those lucky locales?

I'm missing where that came up as well. I don't think the intent was ever to foster an elitism point of view. If my post about requiring credentials had anything to do with it, I take it back. That certainly wasn't my intent, simply my POV and criteria.

It is valid that some folks are concerned that heavier traffic will crush the moss, start a herdpath, flag the route or crap next to a stream.

That would be my concern (plus a bit of the t-shirt on Denali analogy!) And I extend that to the concern that certain routes that develop to herd paths would not hold up to wholesale traffic. Just look at how much work is required to maintain an average trail and how many people complain about lack of trail maintenance: mud holes, erosion, etc. On trails that were designed and now maintained for public use.

I'll leave it at that for now, with a quick word of appreciation for a good discussion of a sensitive issue.

 

[funkyfreddy]

This is a good thread! I really liked Dave's article and would also like to recommend "Wilderness Ethics" by Guy and Laura Waterman which touches on this discussion/dilemma.

Last summer I went kayaking with a friend in northern Maine to some fairly remote lakes. Both of us agreed not to post about them on the internet. I'm glad to share the info privately but would like to avoid having these kayak campsites appear in Backpacker magazine or the latest AMC guide book.

A lot of VFTTer's have shared info with me through E-mail that they didn't feel comfortable posting. I don't think this is being elitist, just practical.

 

[mavs00]

Lets muddy the water some

I agree, very good thread I started (gee it only took 2 years too ).

I really see some validity in many of the posts on here. Of course, we obviously don't need to divulge every trout hole we've been to, but the spirit of sharing (both places and routes) is in our very nature. Many of us are unabashed peakbaggers (in name and deed), and are quite proud of our affiliations with the various peakbaging clubs (46er, NH48, NE115, etc...).

The lists that are represented, how did they come about? Hmmmm, lets see. In one case, some clown put together a pamphlet that contained information about some really cool places he'd been. Some other dude took that information, expanded on it and put out this book that shared these "trout holes" (so to speak) with the rest of us. Hmmmmm, what was his name? Oh yeah, RUSSELL CARSON. I always forget his name, until I remember that we're TRYING TO NAME A MOUNTAIN AFTER HIM for this contribution. His book (Peaks and People) opened up the public to the 46 and here we are today. His inspiration was none other than Bob Marshall's "High Peaks of the Adirondacks" booklet. Let' not forget, 5-6 on the list HAD NEVER been climbed before they did them, so they were truly "trout holes" for them.

The impetus for my new list (that I'm hen-pecking at anyway), the ADK100, was stimulated by conversation and sharing that took place on here and with people I've met through here. My trip to the Amphitheater was initiated by a trip report from here (well over a year ago). The author of which, I now consider a friend and valued hiking partner. I'm thankful, for people like him, Russell Carson, Bob Marshall and others that have chosen not to keep ALL their "trout holes" too close to the chest.

But at the same time, a great deal of discretion must be used. Some stuff (places and routes), are our own and should remain that way. I'm just saying we must not lose sight of sharing altogether. WE HAVE ALL BEEN THE FORTUNATE BENIFACTOR of someone else's good will.

However, I wrong to share Amphitheater pics. But it's just one of many cool places out there to discover and for now, and perhaps where I should keep them is to myself, and those choosen few friends.

Great debate, if only for the fact that "its something to think about".

 

[SherpaKroto]

When I bushwhack, it is usually enough to get a few cryptic notes, i.e where to start, anything to watch out for (ledge, etc,), rough time it took. I then take that and work out my own route. I go a bit overboard with route planning at times , but this helps me see what I'm tackling. I have often shared my results with others. Of course, most of my whacks have been limited to NE100 highest, so much information is already available, making the sharing less sensitive.

I've found that most I've approached have been willing to share some basic information. No one has spoon fed me (well, maybe Gene Danielle), and I wouldn't want that. I don't believe that bushwhackers are looking for a "superhighway" or a "connect the dots" route. Most can read map and compass (I hope all!). Just tell me where to start, and I'll fill in the rest. I don't think that's asking, or divulging too much.

Here is another thought. If someone needs explicit directions to a certain location, do any of you really think that they will actually try it?

 

[kwc]

Of course, we obviously don't need to divulge every trout hole we've been to, but the spirit of sharing (both places and routes) is in our very nature.

There's something in each of us that makes us want to talk/write/share our "adventures", whatever & wherever they may be. In some cases it's a matter of "hey look what I did", in others it's a matter of "hey look at this awesome place I had the chance to visit".

The choice always remains yours to post details or keep them 'close to the vest'.

Dave Metsky wrote, "The act of discovery is a joy in itself". For me, each time I go out into the Adirondacks, regardless of what trail I take (my bushwacks have been limited to winter excursions 'cause ... well, just 'cause!), I feel that I 'discover' something new. Even if I've been to that particular place before, there's still something new in the experience.

And sometimes that discovery and experience is found when viewing other's photos, such as Mavs' Ampitheater pics. Does it make me want to try and duplicate what Mavs has done? Naw, not really, at least not right now. I respect Mavs for putting for the effort to discover that spot for himself, and I thank him for sharing his experiences through his photography.

As several others have already said, no one is twisting your arm to post details of any trek you've taken ... the choice to share or not to share, or how much you share and how you share it is all up to you.

just my two cents.

 

[funkyfreddy]

one more point.....

I'm all for the spirit of sharing but think it needs to be done with discretion as conditions are much different today than they were back when Bob Marshall was hiking.

1. The Northeast, ADK's, Whites, etc. are a lot more populated than they used to be and there are a lot more people out there hiking, camping, peakbagging, etc.

2. It is much easier nowadays to get to spots that used to be very remote and as a result the backcountry is shrinking.....

I wonder what Russell Carson or Bob Marshall would think of the situation today in the High Peaks region or of the herd paths that have been created to the 46. I can remember going to the White mountains in the 70's. They weren't nearly as crowded as they are today. Frankly it scares me to think of what the Northeast might look like in 50 years if the present rate of development continues........

 

[mavs00]

as conditions are much different today than they were back when Bob Marshall was hiking.................

I wonder what Russell Carson or Bob Marshall would think of the situation today in the High Peaks region or of the herd paths that have been created to the 46.........

My point exactly

Do you think they'd feel gulity

 

[Jasonst]

I'm not much of a bushwhacker, primarily due to my inexperience, but I was also wondering where our trail system would be if JR Edmunds and Joe Dodge (and others) didn't do the work to map out some of our major trail systems in the Whites. I am very thankful to them for their efforts, and I am especially thankful that they didn't feel that they were the only worthy ones to climb the Presidentials. Yes, there are those that visit that don't respect the beauty, but by and large the majority of hikers go to all that effort to scale these peaks aren't going to degrade them by trashing the place.

 

[stoopid]

Do you think they'd feel gulity

Hell no, their intent is the same as mine, yours, darren's, peakbgr's, alpinesummit's, etc... we WANT people to go out and enjoy the wilderness. But we would also would like them to be aware of their impact.

I've introduced a few people to the high peaks area during the past year. I scolded (I mean, I was getting pi$$ed!) at my friend Quentin for not paying close attention to the vegetation on Algonquin. It was then I realized (looking around at the other 'tourists') how clueless most peple are (in general, not just concerning this topic). There's a bunch of stones lining the path, signs to please stay out, and there's people trampling on the re-vegetation areas.

So I see the reaction of the membership here as "alarmist" (for sake of the environment), and NOT elitist.

 

[Silverback]

We may be overly concerned here. My guess is that the same hikers who trample the vegatation on Algonquin are NOT going to be the ones to attempt a bushwhack, at least, on purpose.

The casual hiker, who may not be as experienced/educated as many of the folks on this board, likely would have no interest in a difficult bushwhack.

Using Mavs' recent trip to the Basin Ampitheater as an example, most experienced hikers wouldn't attempt that, so it would seem unlikely that the "cotton and sneaker" crowd would undertake such an adventure. Mavs could give exact GPS coordinates and compass headings, and I bet 95% of the population wouldn't have a clue as to how to follow that. The 5% that could, I would have faith in to properly respect the environment.

Besides, the only fun in bushwhacking is in the routefinding. If I want to hike a marked trail, then I'll hike a marked trail.

(p.s. If you happen hike in cotton and sneakers, please don't be insulted, you know what I mean to say by this reference)

 

[Greg]

I used to think that withholding info was elitist; I've been given info and had it withheld from me. But I can't help but to remember a trip that the late Guy W. went on to a pond with a little too much info about it. Very soon the pond was no longer wild, had a trail to it, and lost it's charm. No one wants to be the one who doesn't know, but I guess it's better not to know than to have the thoughtless hordes (of whom there are none on these boards) trampling the beautiful places and leaving cigarette butts. We all pretty much know each other by our posts, we all post our feelings and thoughts. We know who we can trust.