Which GPS is best ?

[SAR-EMT40]

Mine already gives me GPS coordinates anytime I ask. Most if not all cell phones have the capability already, mandated by law. I can allow that data to be transmitted with the call or not. I can also view the coordinates any time I want. Something I don't think all phones offer but I am not sure. It came from a federal requirement for enhanced 911 service.

What Nokia is talking about is a service for showing you locations of services around you based on your GPS location.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

Pretty soon all that will be needed is a cellphone that can tell you exactly where you are. www.nokiausa.com/about/newsroom/article/1,1046,3828,00.html

Many of the GPS equipped cell phones will only tell the cellphone company where you are. The company can choose whether to sell you the info.

Others require an active cell connection. They may use a simplified GPS which requires an approximate location from the cell system or may just send raw satellite measurements back to the cell company for the location computation. Also may require usage fees.

Combined units which can operate as stand-alone GPSes are the next step. Garmin appears to be offering one, I suspect other suppliers do/will also.

Any of the above brings up privacy issues. (Your cell phone call records are already for sale, your location records may soon be too.)

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've used a Garmin Vista for many years and have no real complaints. Have seen the Vista C and the color is a big improvement over the older model. One of my friends has the 60C, and I regularly drool over it - it's large screen is the biggest enhancement, especially in cold weather, with mittens, etc.

I hope this won't sound dismissive (sp?) of all the great knowledge displayed on this thread (I'm always impressed with the degree of expertise displayed on technical issues), but the higher end GPSRs are all excellent tools. If you can afford the 60C, then buy it, but the Vista C is a superb GPSR nonetheless. Personally, I think the additional cost between the Vista and Vista C is well-worth it, as I've found that the factory setting for screen brightness and contrast for the Vista needs adjustment. Very difficult to see the Vista screen in cold weather/low light (conditions when you may need it most) without adjusting the screen. This is not a problem with color model.

 

[DougPaul]

WOW!! My search for GPS info has made my head hurt. I am getting interested and scanned this thread for the last fifteen minutes.

GPSes are amazing but expensive and complicated little boxes. The basic GPS produces 7 pieces of information: time (1), location (3), and velocity (3). Everything else is an internal computer assised interface--readouts, displays, map displays, interface to an external computer, etc.

The Garmin 60CS or 60CSX are popular high-end hiking models, but certainly not the only manufacturer or model. There are also much cheaper models that are adequate for many.

Lots more info at http://www.gpsinformation.net and discussion at http://groups.google.com/group/sci.geo.satellite-nav?hl=en

You may also want to consider mapping software. If you get a mapping GPS, only load maps from the same company into the GPS--so check out the available maps before choosing the hardware. (Third party mapping software can be useful, but generally cannot load maps onto the GPS.)

GPSes are comlicated and expensive little beasts--take your time and do your research before buying. And don't forget that maps and compasses still work as well as ever.

Doug

 

[Motabobo]

By the way, if I missed it. Motabobo, which unit did you buy????

Hey there ! how are things going in the Catskills ?

I'm planning to buy mine in the following week or so.

I have 3 choices, all of which are of Garmin.
eTrex Vista C, GPSMAP 60 CS, GPSMAP 60CSx
What I wanted; color screen, enough memory for 2 entire states, electronic compass and mapping capability.

Vista C: It has everything I want, almost the same thing as the GPSMAP 60CS (memory, number of waypoints are not issues for me and so is the battery life). Reception is, and I hear that theoratically, Quad Helix antennas (GPSMAP 60CS is better than the patch antenna provided in the Vista C). Overall Vista C would seem to be best choice considering the price.

However, some money fell down from the sky from me and now I can have the best ---> GPSMAP 60CSx

The only reason I want it really, is that I'm almost guaranteed to have a good reception, people had reception in their basement, canyons, while every other type of GPS failed. I personally tested it in the middle of a huge store comparing the 3 mentionned models and only the 60CSx had a lock.

I'm getting the GPSMAP 60CSx and even if I won't need its full capacity 99% of the time, I'll be glad to have spent the money for the other 1%. I need to feel I can trust my GPS

 

[DougPaul]

Vista C: It has everything I want, almost the same thing as the GPSMAP 60CS (memory, number of waypoints are not issues for me and so is the battery life). Reception is, and I hear that theoratically, Quad Helix antennas (GPSMAP 60CS is better than the patch antenna provided in the Vista C).

The superiority of the quadrifilar helix antenna is a common myth. Note that most (perhaps all) consumer external antennas are patch antennas.

A drawback of the Vista C is the lack of an RS-232 port and no NMEA output. Critical in some applications.

GPSMAP 60CSx
The only reason I want it really, is that I'm almost guaranteed to have a good reception, people had reception in their basement, canyons, while every other type of GPS failed. I personally tested it in the middle of a huge store comparing the 3 mentionned models and only the 60CSx had a lock.

The SIRF-III Garmin models (including the 60CSx) are widely reported to be better at getting satellite locks in poor conditions than are other models. However, getting a lock is not the same as getting a good location--the weaker the signals used, the more likely they are to be bad (eg reflected, refracted, etc). Also, do not believe the accuracy indication--it is unreliable on all consumer GPSes because it leaves out some very significant error sources.

I'm getting the GPSMAP 60CSx and even if I won't need its full capacity 99% of the time, I'll be glad to have spent the money for the other 1%. I need to feel I can trust my GPS

The biggest advantage of the 60CSx over many of the other models may be the expandable map memory. The SIRF-III GPS chipset also looks nice. There have been some problems found, but they will hopefully be corrected in future firmware releases. The discussion may be found on http://groups.google.com/group/sci.geo.satellite-nav?hl=en or
news://sci.geo.satellite-nav. Looks like a nice unit for hiking.

Doug

 

[Motabobo]

Also, do not believe the accuracy indication--it is unreliable on all consumer GPSes because it leaves out some very significant error sources.

That is my biggest concern, they are so sensitive that they might be wrong actually...I can't make my mind on this yet...
My 2nd option would still be the GPSMAP 60CS though...It is a real nice unit.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

A drawback of the Vista C is the lack of an RS-232 port and no NMEA output. Critical in some applications.

Doug -

You're probably aware of this, but just in case - RS232-> USB adapters are available. I needed one for my XP laptop, as laptops are now rarely sold with RS232 serial ports (just USB), and my Garmin Vista has the old serial interface. When I use it on my desktop, the Garmin software usually sees the connection as Comm 5, but it works fine. It doesn't increase the transfer speed, but this isn't a factor if you're just moving waypoints and tracks back and forth. On the other hand - if you're downloading maps for much of the East Coast, then make sure the GPS has good batteries as the transfer can take upwards of an hour.

Kevin

 

[DougPaul]

Doug -

You're probably aware of this, but just in case - RS232-> USB adapters are available. I needed one for my XP laptop, as laptops are now rarely sold with RS232 serial ports (just USB), and my Garmin Vista has the old serial interface. When I use it on my desktop, the Garmin software usually sees the connection as Comm 5, but it works fine. It doesn't increase the transfer speed, but this isn't a factor if you're just moving waypoints and tracks back and forth. On the other hand - if you're downloading maps for much of the East Coast, then make sure the GPS has good batteries as the transfer can take upwards of an hour.

Thanks, I am aware of such adapters, but they are designed to convert a USB on the host computer to an RS-232 device. I'm not aware of any adapters that will convert a USB device to an RS-232 host.

The Legend C[x] and Vista C[x] have only a USB device port. NMEA is an RS-232 protocol and is not implemented in these GPSes.

NMEA (National Marine Electronics Assoc, I think) is a nautical spec. The protocol is used to tie nautical electronic devices together. For example, a GPS might be interfaced to an autopilot. A number of GPS-related software packages (eg older National Geographic TOPO!) used the protocol to interact with a GPS. Some of these packages have been updated to allow interaction with the Garmin USB-only GPSes.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

That is my biggest concern, they are so sensitive that they might be wrong actually...I can't make my mind on this yet...
My 2nd option would still be the GPSMAP 60CS though...It is a real nice unit.

There is a system being set up for determining the reliabillity of a fix for zero-visibility aircraft landings called RAIM. Far too expensive for hikers.

All navigation devices are subject to errors--part of the skill in using them is recognizing the bad fixes. One thing that is lacking or poor about many consumer GPSes is informing the user of the quality of the fix.

A GPS assumes the signals are direct from the satellites--any indirect paths are longer and, when the fix is computed, will result in additional errors in the computed fix. The indirect signals are usually but not always weaker than the direct paths and distinguishing between the two can be difficult. (Some professional units do have techniques to distinguish.)

I haven't seen any good comparisons between the two GPSes in poor signal conditions. (One method is to go on a hike with two GPSes on a known route and comparing the recorded tracks to the true route on a computer. Has to be done by someone who understands the GPSes to avoid rookie errors.) My guess is that, where both can get a fix, the 60CSX will be as good as or better than the 60CS. How accurate are the fixes from a 60CSX in even weaker signal conditions? Haven't seen any good reports yet. The ability to get a fix is readily apparent to a user, determining the real accuracy is much harder.

Either the 60CS or the 60CSX is a good unit. I have a 60CS and, of course, covet the large mapping memory and sensitivity of the 60CSX.

Doug

 

[Doodles]

Hey there Motabobo,

I just purchased the e-Trex Vista C.

I went with the smaller unit as opposed to the 60CS. Was about $100 cheaper. Seems to have all the needed features.

This is my first GPS so it will be a starting point and learning experience.

Thanks to all on this thread for the information.

George

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Thanks, I am aware of such adapters, but they are designed to convert a USB on the host computer to an RS-232 device. I'm not aware of any adapters that will convert a USB device to an RS-232 host.

Doug -

Not to split hairs, but I think it's less of a hardware issue and more of a software problem. The Tripplite adapter I use has standard USB-A male/DB9 male connectors, and even if the host has the older 25 pin interface, there are hardware "gender menders" which solve that problem. So, it appears the phyical hardware connection piece is solved, as there are adapters to convert the USB-A male to the "mini" USB connector if necessary. The question in my mind is - does Tripplite provide the software driver for the host OS in question, and an email to Tripplite could nail that down. The product description mentions Windows 2000 & XP, but not Linux.

 

[DougPaul]

Doug -

Not to split hairs, but I think it's less of a hardware issue and more of a software problem. The Tripplite adapter I use has standard USB-A male/DB9 male connectors, and even if the host has the older 25 pin interface, there are hardware "gender menders" which solve that problem. So, it appears the phyical hardware connection piece is solved, as there are adapters to convert the USB-A male to the "mini" USB connector if necessary. The question in my mind is - does Tripplite provide the software driver for the host OS in question, and an email to Tripplite could nail that down. The product description mentions Windows 2000 & XP, but not Linux.

I haven't studied the USB protocols in detail, but I have studied the RS-232 protocols. In RS-232, the host end has different functions from the device end. Such is also likely true with USB. (This is completely independent of the physical connectors.)

The most common adapter of interest (with respect to GPSes) is USB host to RS-232 device. (The software is a driver to make the USB port plus adapter look like a comm port to the application software (eg a mapping program).)

In the case of the Legend-C[x]/Vista-C[x] the NMEA protocol is simply not included in the GPS. And I don't know if adpters are available to convert a USB device to an RS-232 host. (Never heard of any, but I haven't looked...)

My laptop has both USB and RS-232 ports, so hardware adapters are a non-issue for me.

Doug

 

[Motabobo]

Last question I swear !
Is it a big deal if I would buy the GPS in the USA under another (legal, in fact my friend will order it) name and make it shipped in the USA even though I'm living in Canada ?

The reason is that it comes around 200$ cheaper this way !!! I know I'm a cheap ass...

The only thing I see is that I would have to send the GPS to my friend if anything would happen to it during the 1 year warranty. After that it's all good since I'll have to pay for the repairs anyway.

What do you think ?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Last question I swear !
Is it a big deal if I would buy the GPS in the USA under another (legal, in fact my friend will order it) name and make it shipped in the USA even though I'm living in Canada ?

The reason is that it comes around 200$ cheaper this way !!! I know I'm a cheap ass...

The only thing I see is that I would have to send the GPS to my friend if anything would happen to it during the 1 year warranty. After that it's all good since I'll have to pay for the repairs anyway.

What do you think ?

I'm no expert on Canadian laws, but personally I don't have a problem with that. People in New England travel to NH regularly to avoid paying sales tax. My hunch is that if your province has any problems with your purchase it has more to do with taxes than anything.

 

[Neil]

Ordering on-line and having it shipped to a friend in the US is perfectly legal.
When you cross the border you are supposed to declare it and pay duty on it. The illegal part comes when you "forget" to do that.

Phone Raytech in Laval (Garmin repairs for all of Canada are done there) and ask if they will honour your warrenty if you purchase it in the US.

(I bought a used gps from a friend in the US and when it needed repairs I took it in to Raytech. They gave me a brand new one for $100 CDN.)

 

[Motabobo]

The main difference comes from the list price, way cheaper on the net and our currency is currently high...

 

[DougPaul]

Last question I swear !

I'm not sure I believe you...

Doug

 

[Motabobo]

I'm not sure I believe you...

Doug

I have only one word...Bought my 60CSx yesterday... I know, I know it may be too sensitive but they told me the 60CS was beeing discontinued...Is this true ? I wasn't to argue because I wanted one NOW, so I ended up buying the damn thing. I'm sleeping with it under my pillow (joke)...

In my appartment I get 6 satellites out of 14, as far as I can from the windows, with an accuracy of 14 feet....well at least that's what it told me

 

[Kevin Rooney]

In my appartment I get 6 satellites out of 14, as far as I can from the windows, with an accuracy of 14 feet....well at least that's what it told me

Then finding the bathroom shouldn't present much of problem ...

Enjoy your new toy, and all the software that can go with it.