Wilderness Area Regulations on group size

[David Metsky]

I decided to pull out the posts on the Wilderness Regs from the Tripyramid thread and not hijack it further. This is an interesting discussion that deserves its own thread.

 

[David Metsky]

The ranger was indeed a class act and acted in a very professional manner the whole time. Absolutely no question about that.

The encounter, though, raises some questions, which may well have been addressed in earlier threads (searched but couldn't find). One of them (not the Tripyramid situation) is, if I'm hiking with a group of 8 people who frequent VFTT, and we arrive at a summit to find another group of 8 people whom we know and who also frequent VFTT, does that constitute a violation of the "groups of 10" rule? One of the questions the ranger asked was whether we were from VFTT.

Some other questions: Where are the rules, anyway? Is "group" ever defined? Where does the 1/4 mile limitation come from (groups must be at least 1/4 mile apart)?

I found nothing in the US Code, in 36 CFR, or in the White Mtn. Nat'l Forest "Management Area Direction" that answers these questions. It's hard to know what to do to avoid breaking the rules when you can't find them. I don't really want to go around flaunting the regs, but I'd like to know what I'm allowed to do.

This is all my understanding from talking with the rangers and with the AMC as part of our leader training.

If you plan your hike together and plan to meet up - you are a single trip and need to act accordingly. Running into people who you didn't know were hiking that day, no problem. Starting on opposite ends of a trail and meeting on the summit for lunch, clearly a violation. Meeting briefly in the middle to key swap, a gray area.

The 1/4 mile rule is simply an administrative way to determine if groups are together. You need some metric otherwise the regulation is meaningless. I'm not sure where it comes from but certainly the FS is authorized to make that determination.

 

[Mattl]

The thing to remember is that no matter how quiet people are, a group of more then 4 seems to naturally get loud. I remember sitting at Ethan Pond one quiet winter day years ago, when nothing except for the wind could be heard, then about .5 miles away I could hear the slow increase in murmur, then what sounded like an inner city next to the pond. It can just really hurt ones experience. Even though Ethan is not in the wilderness, it is only about .25 away, and I have had some similar experiences elsewhere. I have hiked with groups of 4 or so, and its amazing how it seems to make everyone want to chat. I decided to go ahead of the group, and they ended up getting upset asking why I didn't stay with them..I wonder why. I ended up seeing 3 moose and watching them, when they got there, the moose got scared and were gone. I agree with the Forest Service for wilderness areas. Everyone hikes for different reasons, some for quiet, some for company, but the thing to remember is that you may be ruining someone elses experience they are having for quiet. -Mattl

 

[MadRiver]

Two occasions come to mind. Seema’s gourmet hut trip and the Fool Scout Ball. In both cases the group exceeded 10. I forget how many were at Galehead last year, but there were over 40 at Carter Notch last April. Although we all received our packages from Seema, we didn’t hike as a group. As I recall I hiked with J&J most of the trip while others were in front and behind. In the Fool Scout Ball we also had different start times so I don’t believe we broke any regs. However, I have seen college outing clubs exceed 10 but they may have a permit. Unless you are all hiking in lock step it seems like a judgment call. What does a ranger do when he looks down the Franconia Ridge and sees 40 people crossing? Or going up Tucks on a blue bird day?

 

[dug]

I don't want to step on any toes, and glad everyone had a good time, but I must say if I was chilling out on a peak and a frat party showed up, I'd be pissed. Sorry. And, I say that as a member of a frat who has absolutely no problem tearing it up when the opportunity I deem to be right.

*Oh, and I'd probably ask for a slug of what everyone is drinking *

 

[mookie]

to each his own

i say to each his own.
we should all be able to enjoy the hills as we wish, just so long as we are respectable to everyone, everything and play by the rules.
i have no problem encountering a group of happy hikers on a quiet peak, as a matter of fact i usually dont expect to have a summit all to myself in silence(especially during the warmer months).

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Frat Party

Well, I have to say I felt bad for folks on Middle Tri who not only had to deal with our "Frat" party, but with unruly dogs from another group who stole part of their lunch.

The 10 person rule is meant for designated Wilderness Areas, which we were in, although I would have to say it should be followed throughout the Whites just to maintain some decorum.

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=wildView&WID=450&tab=Area Management

The Ranger was polite and professional and nobody blamed him, most of us knew we were in the wrong. He was just doing his job. He could have played the bad ass, but took the higher road. In his position I'm sure I would not have handled it as well. Kudos to Garth.

I'm not sure Tucks or Franconia Ridge are actully inside the Wilderness Areas? Maybe they are. That was my first thought during interaction with the ranger. Has he ever seen the summit of Lafayette on a clear summer day? But I thought about things and backed down from an argument with him. He was doing the right thing and I'm sure inside we all appreciate what he was trying to convey.

KDT

 

[Mattl]

No Franconia Ridge and Tucks are not in the wilderness area, But 13 Falls is, I know big groups go to that. -Mattl

 

[David Metsky]

Franconia Ridge, Tuckerman, and other popular destinations for large groups are not in the Wilderness Area and these regulations don't apply. The huts are not in the Wilderness and all have routes that don't take you through the Wilderness. You'll notice that most designated Wilderness Areas don't include the ridgeline trails; the WA designation is just below them. The AMC maps clearly show what is and isn't in the Wilderness.

I have no problems with the regs, and I wish we had thought through our little trip this past weekend a bit more. If you accept that Wilderness Areas are different then the rest of the Whites then there are some constraints on your activities in those areas. You're not going to find much by the way of shelters or improved camping sites, trails are maintained to a different standard, you'll rarely find mileage on signs, no power tools for trail maintainence, and people are required to keep group size below 10 people.

I think there is a benefit for all of us if there are places where we can go to avoid crowds.

 

[nartreb]

Official source:

WMNF

Text copy here:
SummitPost

Tux is not in a designated Wilderness. It is in the Cutler river drainage which has its own rules, but the group size rule does not apply.

Most of Franconia Ridge Trail is right on the border of the Pemi. Not clear whether the size limit applies on the trail. (EDIT: I defer to Metsky's reading of the map.)

 

[RoySwkr]

I would like to remind everybody that while 10 or fewer may be the current regulation, the Forest Plan requires the Forest Service to try to reduce group size even further. For instance, the education message for Zone A is that groups should be 4 or fewer. (see p E-27)
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/whi.../pdf_documents/PLAN_PDF/E_PLAN_wilderness.pdf

Zone A (see p E-5) is areas more than 500 feet from official trails, so this means a group of over 4 climbing Owls Head or on the summit of Isolation would be against Forest policy. And policies have a habit of becoming future regulations. Whether you think this limitation is good or bad, you should know it exists.

 

[Tony]

What group?

On some mountains, Monadnock on a Saturday springs to mind, the whole trail seems to be one continuous stream so i don't know how this affects the views on groups. I remember coming off the Smith Connecting Trail to the White Cross one Saturday and feeling like I should put on my blinker before merging.

 

[David Metsky]

On some mountains, Monadnock on a Saturday springs to mind, the whole trail seems to be one continuous stream so i don't know how this affects the views on groups. I remember coming off the Smith Connecting Trail to the White Cross one Saturday and feeling like I should put on my blinker before merging.

Again, none of this applies unless you are in the Wilderness Areas. It's not intended for places like Monadnock, which don't meet the basic criteria for Wilderness designation.

 

[nartreb]

It's not intended for places like Monadnock, which don't meet the basic criteria for Wilderness designation.

Starting with the fact that it's not on Federal land...

 

[Mad Townie]

Yeah, I had seen most of that stuff. But it's all brochures and such things, bullet lists, etc., and not those things that are considered "laws."

What I was looking for were actual regulations or statutes, the kinds of things that define words like "group." Criminal laws are sometimes found by the courts to be "void for vagueness," and what seems to be common sense is only so until you hit a situation where it can't possibly be what's intended. I won't bore you with hypotheticals.

I realize this is nit picking, but that's how rules governing behavior are interpreted, especially when there is a provision for fines, etc. if you violate them.

As Dave said, the Wilderness rules are there for our benefit, and I have a deep respect for wilderness designations and the purposes they serve. I just want to know exactly what is and is not forbidden. I also agree that we should have thought things out a bit more beforehand.

 

[Neil]

Once when I was on Giant Mtn. in the Dacks 5 or 6 guys were pissed drunk and bellowing out theme songs to TV shows. "Meet the Flinstones" was their favorite. Not a typical wilderness experience.

Anyway, what I like about gatherings is that you hike during the day and then you party with the gang. It's great to be looking forward to the party while out hiking.

 

[NewHampshire]

Two occasions come to mind. Seema’s gourmet hut trip and the Fool Scout Ball. In both cases the group exceeded 10. I forget how many were at Galehead last year, but there were over 40 at Carter Notch last April. Although we all received our packages from Seema, we didn’t hike as a group. As I recall I hiked with J&J most of the trip while others were in front and behind. In the Fool Scout Ball we also had different start times so I don’t believe we broke any regs. However, I have seen college outing clubs exceed 10 but they may have a permit. Unless you are all hiking in lock step it seems like a judgment call. What does a ranger do when he looks down the Franconia Ridge and sees 40 people crossing? Or going up Tucks on a blue bird day?

You do realize that none of the huts we held the event at are in Wilderness areas (in fact, NONE of the huts are). This makes your argument about the FSB moot.

Brian

 

[David Metsky]

You do realize that none of the huts we held the event at are in Wilderness areas (in fact, NONE of the huts are). This makes your argument about the FSB moot.

This was already mention upthread, making your post moot.

 

[NewHampshire]

This was already mention upthread, making your post moot.

Yeah, I actually read the whole thread afterwards.....my bad . Hey, that could be a new VFTT Poll Question...."DO you speed browse long threads?"

Brian