Winter mountaineering boot confusion

[Kevin Rooney]

Since it sounds like you might have serious frostbite injury, so carry a few pairs of toe warmers. These are shaped to fit under your foot better than hand warmers. Hand warmers work, but I wouldn't use them regularly as they can mess with your gait and cause hip/knee problems. If you've never used them - they take a couple of hours to reach full warmth; don't put them next to your skin; and replace unused ones each year. Not to say they won't last longer than a year, but they gradually loose potency (air penetrates the plastic bag).

 

[J.Dub]

I was assuming that the reason for using true mountaineering boots was that they will readily accept the 3 types of crampons - hinged, semi-rigid and rigid while the winter boots mentioned often do not or do not well.

If by "true mountaineering boots" you mean plastic doubles, there are pros and cons to them. (Or "advantages and limitations" as my BSA climbing director likes to say...)

PROS
-stiff sole (good for cramponing and esp. for vertical ice)
-removable liners can be kept warm in your sleeping bag overnight
-waterproof (as in: boot material won't get soaked like leather boots do, not as in: will keep your feet dry if you punch through during a stream crossing
-oftentimes warmer than a single boot
-will take any type of crampon (hinged, semi-rigid, rigid)
-will accept any type of crampon binding (strap-on, semi-automatic, step-in)

CONS
-stiff sole (bad for long approaches/hikes, esp. over broken terrain)
-tend to be heavier
-bulkier (bigger boot volume for a given shoe size)
-can result in shin bang and/or toe bang
-more expensive (generally)

It really comes down to what YOU want to hike/climb that will determine what kind of boots to get, and even for the same objective, there are often multiple options. To wit: I believe Doug (cbcbd) hikes out west in singles, even on overnights, and just puts his entire boots in his bag overnight, where I would be wearing my doubles, leaving the shells in the tent vestibule and just putting the liners in the bag.

I was a big fan of my Asolo doubles for ice climbing, multi-day winter outings and even for day hikes in the ADKs and Whites. Then I picked up a pair of single, synthetic ice climbing boots (also happening to be Asolo's). OMFG they are soooo much more comfortable to hike in!! They are about half the weight of the doubles and MUCH more flexible. Going forward I'll be wearing these for day hikes and ice climbing and only pull out the doubles for multi-day trips.

I concur with the advice given upthread: get boots that are WARM, regardless of style (single/double). Also, TRY ON as many boots as possible -- wearing the sock/socks that you will be hiking in -- before making your purchase. Unlike a lot of other hiking/climbing gear, boots are not the ideal thing to buy sight unseen over the Interwebs. Each mfg uses their own last(s) and will have a different fit. Your preferred size in Koflachs may very well be different in Scarpas, which may yet be different again in La Sportivas or Merrills or Columbias or Asolos.

The good news is that there are a LOT of good boots out there these days. You just need to find the ones that fit. Fit your needs and fit your feet!

 

[jniehof]

I hike in a pair of Kamik Frontrange boots and the soles are fairly stiff.

Kamik makes some very nice boots (moderately stiff double boots) for a very good price. Unfortunately they run narrow in my experience and probably won't help the OP.

adkayaker, I wear a 12 in running shoes and 12.5EE for everyday use. The only double boots I've found which fit well are size 13 Sorel Caribous and size 13 (US) Koflach Degres. I wear a heavy mountaineering sock (REI or Smartwool), a vapor barrier (Integral Designs), and a light liner sock. Without the VB, my feet sweat for several hours, then slowly freeze as the insulation wets out. This may be part of the issue with cold feet for you now; your current boots might also pinch a little if you run wide. Circulation==warmth.

The Sorels are, of course, useless in crampons...and crampons that fit are near impossible to find. I use microspikes normally and have a cheap pair of plier-abused crampons if necessary. The Koflachs come out for anything where I expect any serious cramponing. The BD Sabretooth crampons just barely fit the Koflachs with the regular bar, but I did buy the long bars.

Just one guy's experience; HTH. If you do buy a new pair, I second the recommendation to wear your hiking socks...also try to buy at the end of the day, when your feet are swollen.

 

[DougPaul]

adkayaker, I wear a 12 in running shoes and 12.5EE for everyday use. The only double boots I've found which fit well are size 13 Sorel Caribous and size 13 (US) Koflach Degres. I wear a heavy mountaineering sock (REI or Smartwool), a vapor barrier (Integral Designs), and a light liner sock. Without the VB, my feet sweat for several hours, then slowly freeze as the insulation wets out. This may be part of the issue with cold feet for you now; your current boots might also pinch a little if you run wide. Circulation==warmth.

Plastic is, of course, impervious to moisture, thus moisture from your feet will tend to collect inside (and thus the VBL). Leather, being permeable, can let moisture out. There are also two types of liners: impermeable (typically plastic foam) and permeable (eg wool felt).

My boots are leather with wool felt liners. Thus moisture can escape and my feet generally feel dry at the end of the day. (There is still some moisture in the felt and thus the liners need to be dried overnight. The leather can also freeze, but that hasn't been a problem.) I treat the leather outer with snoseal and haven't had any problems with external moisture.)

BTW, some of the modern boots come with heat moldable liners--the salesman will mold the liners to fit your feet.

Doug

 

[NorthShore]

I'm looking to get a new pair of winter boots. I hope to do more winter hiking than in the past but don't think I'm ready for the investment in any of the double boots. I'd mostly be snowshoeing, but would prefer if the boot would take the crampons reasonably well if needed (BD contact strap).

I can see hiking in temps a little below zero, but that is probably the low end...so the direct question is whether there is any reason I should avoid the Merrells at EMS and whether one of these is any better than the other. With the club days sale, they aren't too heavy an investment:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3652399


http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3652463

Thanks in advance!

Ed

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I'm looking to get a new pair of winter boots. I hope to do more winter hiking than in the past but don't think I'm ready for the investment in any of the double boots. I'd mostly be snowshoeing, but would prefer if the boot would take the crampons reasonably well if needed (BD contact strap).

I can see hiking in temps a little below zero, but that is probably the low end...so the direct question is whether there is any reason I should avoid the Merrells at EMS and whether one of these is any better than the other. With the club days sale, they aren't too heavy an investment:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3652399


http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3652463

Thanks in advance!

Ed

I think you'd be quite satisified with the SNOWMOTION 8 boot. It has more insulation and is taller. A -40F rating is a minimum, as far as I'm concerned. That means when it gets down to zero or a bit below, your feet will probably stay warm.

 

[Mike P.]

I do wear Koflach Plastics & I do have a preference but here are some reasons why.

Big investment? maybe, but mine are 10 years old & I suspect that they will last another 10 years. So big one time investment, no repeat investment.

Shin bang I have found to be solved by lacing adjustments or sock adjustments. (14 miles or so on Isolation with no problem)

Too much boot for your small trip? What if you or your partner fall & get injured & your day-hike turns into an unplanned overnight? How are those lightweight boots feeling? If I fall & can't get out that night, I'd like to keep my toes, even if I need a cast for a few weeks on the leg.

Convinced your only going to do short easy day-hikes in the winter. Didn't most of us once think hiking season was from Memorial Day to Columbus Day? No sane person would climb the tallest peaks of NY or NH in the winter. Now we know the season starts sometime after Election Day

Maybe you will stick to short hikes, but why lay out $100 for soft winter boot this year & mountainnering boots of one kind or another next year?

 

[DSettahr]

About your concerns with having the right boot for your crampons:

There are two basic kinds of crampons, strap on crampons and "step in" crampons.

Strap on crampons are exactly that, they use straps to hold on to the boot, and will work with any kind of boot provided the crampons are the right size to fit that boot. Most crampons are adjustable in size, some crampon makers (like Black Diamond) offer separate attachments for people with really big feet to make the crampons fit better. Generally, these crampons are more for less-technical mountaineering and not so much vertical ice climbing.

The "step in" crampons (black diamond calls these their "pro" models) work a lot like downhill ski bindings. They are designed for boots that have toe and heel welts, which is basically a rigid piece of the boot that sticks out in front and back. These crampons have a metal bar in front and usually a plastic piece in the back that "snap" on to these welts. The fit is generally good enough that the crampon will stay on the boot even if you don't fasten the straps (although you should definitely do this when using them!). In order to use these crampons, you do need a special mountaineering boot (like the Kolflachs) that is both very rigid and has the toe and heel welts. These crampons are often designed for more technical pursuits such as vertical ice.

There's also "clip" crampons (as Black Diamond calls them) which are kind of middle of the line. They require a heel welt but not a toe welt, as they have the regular strap on bindings in the front.

It's definitely very important to make sure that you have a crampon that fits your boot. A "step in" crampon with a boot that doesn't have the necessary toe welts and the rigidity (i.e., your generic leather North Face or Sorel winter boots) could potentially be a dangerous combination.

Concerning winter boots, I have two pairs that I use. One is a pair of North Face Baltoro boots. I use these for lowland snowshoeing as well as mountains where I know there is little above treeline exposure and a small chance of encountering extensive ice. When wearing these boots, I carry a pair of Black Diamond Contact Strap crampons in case I need them.

My other pair of winter boots is a pair of Koflach Degres (the reddish/orange ones). These I typically wear when I know I'm going to be above tree line and face with a lot of exposed rock and ice. With these, I generally use a pair of Black Diamond Sabretooth Pro crampons.

I'm also considering purchasing a pair of Sorels for lowland snowshoeing pursuits where I know I won't ever need crampons.

 

[KRobi]

I have a pair of North Face boots that are very similar to the Cabela's just mentioned. Most of the people I hiked with last winter in the AMC Winter Hiking Series and then on my own after, used boots similar to these. The instructors used double boots. No one had any issues, although last year we didn't need crampons very often. That being said my boots will take crampons and I know the Cabela's will also. One friend just cut out a small piece on the back side area of the heel to get a better fit. They are very warm and comfortable. I would look at the Cabela's as the price is much better than the NF I have

 

[DrJJFate]

Looks who's back:

KOFLACH

 

[Heavypack]

Which Boot!

I have also been struggling with this question. Last year I bought the Sorel Conquest for decent/long day hikes. Now I read reviews that say.....you made a mistake!

My feeling is that if you end up in a bad situation (say unplanned overnight) the cost of each foot of frostbite is say $200!

 

[erugs]

I've worn my Grivel G10s with my Cabela Avalanche and they worked just fine for what I was doing. Someone earlier in this posting warned that flexible boots wouldn't work well with crampons, as the connecting T-Bar would break. I've had that happen, and when it did I replaced the T-Bar with Grivel's solution, a flexible T-Bar. Haven't had a break since. If I was going to be climbing a major peak where I would be wearing crampons on climbing all day, I would elect to wear my Scarpa plastic boots. Most hikes here in New England could go either way for me. (My Scarpa's are so comfortable, I really don't mind wearing them. In fact, I wore them up and back to our base camp on Shasta this summer when they weren't needed for warmth or crampons or anything else.)