Women and hiking

[DougPaul]

Not sure about my female comrades as I don't believe I've ever discussed this with any of them, but while some of my male counterparts have been total gentlemen with me on the trail helping me up a steep trail or down a difficult section, others have not. I've appreciated both types of interactions for obvious reasons: for one, I am a lady, and secondly, I am fiercely independent.

I must admit though that it took some getting used to the lack of chivalry when I first started hiking seriously and hanging out with hard core hikers. In time I got to understand this new subculture and it became a pretty natural existence for me. I was particularly impressed, however, with a newer hiker buddy of mine that I noticed would watch out for me as well as for another male hiking buddy of ours while the three of us hiked together.

Many of the hard core feel that self-reliance is a very important part of mountaineering. This does not mean that everything has to be done solo--just that each should do his own part without special help. (Beginners, of course, may need special help here and there.)

Also as an ex-leader for an organization, I keep an eye on everyone in the party to make sure that all are ok. (Beginners in particular should be watched because they are more likely to develop problems and are less likely to speak up.) I also expect to be watched by the other experienced members of the party. Just standard operating procedure for group hiking...

An individual's problem can become the entire party's problem and the party can move no faster than the slowest member.

Doug

 

[nietzschescat]

I generally hike with my husband, but I have hiked with a male (also married) co-worker and I got the impression that people didn't really understand what we were doing in the woods all day.

My daughters are young adults now, but when they were little and we were hiking with them in those little pouches or backpacks I felt like sometimes people thought we shouldn't have little babies on the trails or that there were certain trails we shouldn't be on.

I'm not afraid of being alone in the woods since I grew up in the country and spent my childhood running around alone in the woods, but I prefer hiking with my husband since we have such a good time together.

Sometimes there are issues because I am small and I have to navigate stream crossings or rock outcroppings a little differently than a larger man.

I took great pains on one trail to find this private place to pee, walked way into the woods behind a rock or something and as we continued on the trail it turned out that the trail had a bend in it and I was actually right next to the trail and didn't realize it. Luckily no one was around.

When we were in our early 20s we were camping/backpacking for a long weekend in the Taconic Mts and hadn't seen a soul for days. We had our dog. It was really hot and my husband had his shirt off, so I decided to take my shirt off too(just getting into the nature experience/I don't know what I was thinking now) and of course someone comes walking down the trail. So now I generally try to keep my clothes on in the woods.

This is a great thread. I generally don't post, just lurk.

 

[MichaelJ]

However, try as I might I couldn't get the stove lit and after a long, long while struggling with it, I began to wonder if he'd ever offer to light it himself.

There's an unfortunately very vague line here to try to balance, one that extends well beyond the mountain venue, and one which could be an entire topic unto itself.

If you try to help someone and you do so too quickly they may feel like you're not giving them a chance and/or failing to recognize their competence. You also deny them the opportunity to figure it out on their own. However, if you wait too long, they may feel you're being unhelpful or even intentionally letting them "suffer".

The "tough love" comment was not the nicest thing to say, but I can't find fault in letting you try to succeed at the stove on your own.

There's no easy way to predict how any given person feels, to which side the balancing act has to lean, and when you throw in gender politics and "chivalry" it gets even more difficult.

I was raised to behave in ways you might categorize as chivalrous, but in fact regardless of gender it boils down to respecting the other person when you help them / be kind to them.

Counterpoint:
I was once criticized for "condescending" to a woman when I offered her my seat on a packed subway car. Criticized *by her*. I was getting off in two stops and wanted to be nice to someone. So much for that idea.

 

[Solitary]

Dress & Undress

When we were in our early 20s we were camping/backpacking for a long weekend in the Taconic Mts and hadn't seen a soul for days. We had our dog. It was really hot and my husband had his shirt off, so I decided to take my shirt off too(just getting into the nature experience/I don't know what I was thinking now) and of course someone comes walking down the trail. So now I generally try to keep my clothes on in the woods.

This is a great thread. I generally don't post, just lurk.

Well truth be told, I did the same thing once when hiking with my boyfriend of the time and of course the same thing happened. I hesitate to mention that because now I fear there are going to be lots of posts from guys defending our "rights to go topless." Oh well...

But I bet you never decided to walk around your hometown topless, right? The reason I mention that is that I think there is something about being in nature and away from lots of people that causes us to reexamine what we are doing just to satisfy the demands of society. I think that's a good thing.

I've been reading in "Forest and Crag" by Laura & Guy Waterman about how previous generations of female climbers challenged society dress codes for women involved in athletic pursuits. Here's a couple of quotes:

"...It was, to put it mildly, not an age when women either expected or were expected to show athletic vigor or an adventurous bent. The overcoming of psychological barriers is often more difficult than surmounting physical obstacles. But the physical obstacles were drastically augmented for women by the fact that social mores required them to wear ankle-length dresses when climbing mountains."

Of course I can't read that without thinking how much those dresses must have weighed when they got wet. And of course my grandmother has told me about her hiking days and how lucky I am to live in an era when they actually design athletic wear designed for some of the "unique" aspects of a woman's body.

Oh... gotta run. There's another good quote from the same book along similar lines but I'll post it later. Great book by the way.

 

[Mad Townie]

Sometimes there is a very fine line between chivalry and condescension, and between respect and passive-aggression.

I'm happy to be "chivalrous" in situations where that does not imply any intent to treat the other person as weak--holding a door open for someone to enter first, etc. I like to do that for men as well as women, and even for my own kids. It's a matter of simple courtesy, really. I like this definition of chivalry: "the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms."

On the trail, though, especially with VFTT women who are much stronger hikers than I, I think it's best to stand back and not offer a helping hand if that act might be construed as seeing a weakness or need in the other person. Rather than demonstrating a lack of courtesy, it's more a demonstration of respect. Of course there's a difference between standing back and refusing to assist. If someone extends a hand while crossing a stream, I'm happy to take it whether I'm the helper or the helpee.

Maybe someday we'll get past all of this, but for now there are still many women, at least among my contemporaries, who remember those earlier times when chivalry was almost equated with contempt for the woman's perceived lack of strength or ability. Don't miss those times at all. Of course now we sometimes see the flip side--the person who refuses to help another when that feeling, though cloaked in the guise of respect, is more an expression of anger at the other's "uppitiness."

Having said all of that, I don't know that I've ever seen any of those problems among the VFTT folks I've hiked with.

 

[DougPaul]

"...It was, to put it mildly, not an age when women either expected or were expected to show athletic vigor or an adventurous bent. The overcoming of psychological barriers is often more difficult than surmounting physical obstacles. But the physical obstacles were drastically augmented for women by the fact that social mores required them to wear ankle-length dresses when climbing mountains."

Of course I can't read that without thinking how much those dresses must have weighed when they got wet. And of course my grandmother has told me about her hiking days and how lucky I am to live in an era when they actually design athletic wear designed for some of the "unique" aspects of a woman's body.

Back in those days, some women wore bloomers under a skirt. The skirt had a drawstring around the hem so it could be raised up and tied out of the way. When they got back close to civilization (which included mountain huts), they could drop the skirt hem and regain their modesty.

Didn't do much for the weight, though...

Doug

 

[HikerAmiga]

Tough love works!

There’s much to be said about ‘tough love’ and how it helps to shape us including our being self-sufficient in life and even in the woods! This same male hiking buddy once showed me how to use his water filtration system which was much better than mine. During his demo, I was amazed at how great it worked and his technique made him seem oh so much more attractive to me so I excitedly exclaimed, “Ohhh, my hero!” (I tend to be sappy like this) His response, in turn, was, “Noooo! You got to learn to learn to do your own”. Tough love in action once again!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I think that when we use terms like "chivalrous" it carries with it all sorts of baggage, most of it negative.

Rather, I try to choose hiking companions, regardless of gender, who are considerate, aware of their surroundings, and make decisions factoring in their own safety and comfort with those of others. That sounds like a mouthful, but it really isn't - when you know what to look for, you can spot this in people within a few hours of hiking with them.

I think you can offer someone assistance without diminishing them. If someone's struggling with a tent, or stove or even getting their pack on - offer them a hand. Just do it matter-of-factly, without condescension or drama, and then let them make their own decision. As we've heard Red Green say so many times - "We're all in this together".

 

[BorealChickadee]

Hmmmm...now I usually hike alone and if once in a blue moon some gallant XY chromosome body offers a hand I will graciously say thank you because after always taking care of myself both in and out of the woods I really do appreciate an act of kindness. I will also give the same thank you to any woman who offers a hand. Sometimes I just can't figure out what all the talk is about. I hike. I'm just someone else out there in the woods. I'll help someone if they need it and offer a hand if it makes their day a bit easier or brings a smile to their face. And if the same is offered to me I appreciate someone's caring. I guesss the real difference comes down to shear physical strength or leg length. Some things are just beyond my physical capabilities and then, yes, if you see me struggling to get my leg up the last 3 inches of a ledge or to carry a log that is maxing me out, please jump in and help. You'll get a huge thank you. But I'm also not afraid to ask questions about how something is done better or easier. I can drive you crazy with knot questions.

Safety discussions seem to be a different beast. Although it's not the woods I worry about as around town. I've found some wonderful seasonal roads to walk to build up my knee but a friend wisely suggested I not walk them alone. And you know, he's right. Just outside of town.

This past weekend I had to go in and measure up a lean-to for repairs. A 10-11 mile hike. But flooding was so bad it took 3 3/4 hours to go a little over 5 miles on the way in. Over 4 hours out as my knee wasn't doing as good even though I found a better bushwhack arouond the swamp. Stripping down to wade and swamps really slowed us down. I took with me a newer hiker who essentially was trusting my judgment the entire trip. Very long cold, wet day. As we got to within the last mile on the way out I see a figure coming up the trail to meet us. The guy who asked us to take this lean-to. He was getting worried as the day wound down. His words were something like "I knew you were so experienced but I also knew how fragile you are" (meaning my knee right now). He would have come in for anyone, male or female. It was just the right thing to do as none of us had any idea it would turn into a day of high water and bushwhacking and we normally would have been back hours earlier. Somehow his comment sort of rings a bell here. We respect the experience level of another hiker and at the same time also need to recognize when a hand should be lent or concern is appropriate. It's just common courtesy and caring.

Incidentally after spending miles cussing on the way in, I took one look at the 10 foot flume of water shooting up in the air at the lean-to and was instantly refreshed and said it was all worth it.

PS The tent question. I've shared and not shared. Sharing in winter is easier. Sharing in summer you have to be sure you know the person well enough it won't be taken the wrong way. I've concluded solo tenting is just easier despite the extra pound or two of tent. And oh yeah..potty breaks are a pain. Guys are so lucky even if they do think we don't know what's going on when you drive by the typical A frame, hands on the hips stance.

 

[Roxi]

I think you can offer someone assistance without diminishing them.

Exactly. Offering to help is thoughtful and respectful. Assuming someone needs your help without asking first can be condescending. I had a friend who could not understand the difference between the two, nor why I would get angry when he decided for me that I needed his help, what type of help I needed, and did it without first asking me. Asking/offering first is critical. It gives the other person a chance to either say, "Yes, thank you," or "No thanks, I got it." Having that choice is everything. Offering that choice is very respectful and thoughtful.

 

[Solitary]

Articles about women & hiking

The following articles about women and hiking are from the Washington Trails Association May 2007 news letter:

Answers to women's common hiking questions
http://www.wta.org/~wta/magazine/1224.pdf

Gals' Overnight Out
http://www.wta.org/~wta/magazine/1225.pdf

Women's Lightweight Packs
http://www.wta.org/~wta/magazine/1226.pdf

Happy Trails,
Solitary

 

[SherpaKroto]

...I have not run into alot of issues over the years but it always amazes me how others will look to Spencer or inquire from him on whether I am capable of a particular hike. They'll even do it in front of me. I usually don't hike in groups. VFTT had a gathering in the winter and I wanted to stretch my legs so I made a plan to hike to a certain point with a group and then turn around and hike out on my own. I was up front before I even set out and it was a perfect trail with no adverse conditions. Still when I reached my turn around point I think it made a couple of the males uncomfortable. The women were fine with it...

One of those guys was me. It had nothing to do with the fact that you were a woman. I would ask the same of anyone who was turning around solo. You left with a group, and to me it's very important to know your reasoning on turning around. I'd rather ask you directly. Most people say "no problem, just had a fun day and I'm heading back". I have had a friend tell me that they did want me to head back with them. If I hadn't asked, they would not have asked me.

I definitely see the issues with women hikers, but it does go both ways. I know of both men and women who openly admit that they started hiking to meet someone "like them". No big deal. For me, I like hiking with most everyone. My experience has been that women bring the best snacks . Not the most PC statement I've ever made, but for me it's been true!

Chivalry: I was raised VERY old fashioned. This was one of the things my Dad instilled in me. It's more a natural instinct. It also backfires for me: I am fiercely independent. It is hard for me to accept help from others. I'm learning, so if you see me struggling across a stream, or over a blowdown, I'll take chivalrous assistance from anyone

This is a really good thread. Much to think about.

 

[Solitary]

New Avatar

Dear SherpaKroto,

Interesting new avatar - and yes I'll stay tuned for "bearly live." I have to say, however, that I thought the old avatar with the puzzle pieces was extremely clever. I'll miss it.

 

[sophie bean]

This is a great thread, thank you, Solitary!

It sort of jumped out at me that at least two women here feel that they have been "stalked" on Monadnock. I'm curious if others have had that feeling or experience. I find that very specific and I wonder if it's significant?

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

This is a great thread, thank you, Solitary!

It sort of jumped out at me that at least two women here feel that they have been "stalked" on Monadnock. I'm curious if others have had that feeling or experience. I find that very specific and I wonder if it's significant?

And you can't bring your dog along for protection there either.

 

[sophie bean]

Hm, a trail where you can't bring your dog for protection AND women report feeling "stalked"? Interesting. Well, there's always pepper spray...

 

[Maddy]

Hm, a trail where you can't bring your dog for protection AND women report feeling "stalked"? Interesting. Well, there's always pepper spray...

My answer to this dilemma is to avoid trails where I cannot bring my dog if I am hiking solo. There are so many areas where dogs are welcome that I don't feel deprived in the least.
I can remember being at Dolly Copp in early June after the Chaput murder and I wore a special waist belt and 4 ft leash with my Akita attached to it at all times. I had come to the conclusion that having a dog with you would be useless if h/she was tied to a tree 25 feet from where you were standing in the dark of night (or any other time for that matter).
The campground was pretty deserted when I was there midweek.
I am just not that brave and it's a small price to pay for my "peace of mind". The recent goings on have really heightened my awareness out there. You cannot protect yourself from everything little thing but that is no excuse to throw all caution to the wind.
Here's a good one. Recently I was walking in a local park following a river and heading to a wooded, more isolated area nearby where there is a short trail. Ahead of me, I spotted a young male (late teens, early 20's) who had something dangling from his waist. It was long, curved and appeared to end in a point. It hung down to about his knee and swung back and forth. I was at least 40 ft back so I kept my distance and continued to walk. He frequently turned back to see where I was. This did not last long. I soon did an about face and headed back to the more populated area.
Kodi was with me but it was just not worth taking a chance. I would never have enjoyed that walk after observing this character.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

If you're worried about hiking alone and you're on a trail where dogs are allowed, maybe you ought to consider this offer:

Dog for sale!
* Free to good home.
* Excellent guard dog.
* Owner cannot afford to feed him anymore, as there are no more thieves, murderers, or molesters left in the neighborhood for him to eat.
* Most of them knew him as 'Holy Sh**.'

 

[Hillwalker]

OhMyGawd

A Fila Brasileiro (Brazilian Mastiff) A very scary dog!!!

"It is probably the only breed that was selected for centuries to deeply dislike the humans they were not raised with, and, to this day, temperament tests run during championships require the dogs to attack without being coached, to remain self-confident during a shooting test, and to openly show their suspicion of strangers. The standard prescribes that, even at dog shows, Filas should not 'allow the judge (a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament.'"

Hiking with one of these is sure to cause a bit of unease among your "fellow" hikers.

 

[TCD]

We met a young Fila on the NP two years ago, hiking with a young man named Josh. Nice fellow, and actually a pretty nice dog. But it definitely displayed the distrust of strangers. Even after we got to know the dog well and it would let us pet it and be friendly, if we walked out of the camp site, as soon as we walked back in the dog would growl and challenge us. Beautiful dog (if you are REALLY comfortable with dogs). And not quite as big as the one in the picture; maybe only 130 lb.