GPS Map60CSX question

I really like the Garmin GPS Map60CSx. Its so much fun to be watching where you are on a moving map and the ability to adjust to the terrain to update your route without stopping in the wind or rain to fish a wet map out of the pack.
I have a couple of questions and wondered whether someone might be able to chime in.
Until recently, I've been using lithium batteries consistenly, until I ran out of power in the woods and stuck in a set of alkalines. They ran low on Sunday, and when I got home, I replaced them with a fresh set of lithiums. When I turned the unit on to download a tracklog, it kept turning itself off. I tried a variety of options. First I put in another set of lithiums and same thing happened. Then I tried putting the lithiums in an alarm clock to let them be used for a few seconds, same result when back in the GPS. When I put a fresh set of alkalines in the GPS, back to working fine.
I asked a Garmin tech a few months ago if I could use lithiums and she said that the only ones that cause problems are one marked "high drain" on the packages". For those, she recommended just slightly discharging them in another battery-using device and then put them back in the GPS.

I've kept the firmware and software updated thru Garmin's site and wondered if that could be an issue. Back when I first got the unit, I went into the setup and noticed that there wasn't a lithium setting and just used the alkaline setting and it worked fine. When I go into setup now, there IS a lithium setting, but the lithium batteries don't keep the unit on in either the lithium or akaline setting.
My other question has to do with tracklogs. I like to run the tracklogs even when I'm on a trail, so I can practice with the computer software and the unit. It seems that the last few times I've used it, I start the unit at the car, go to menu and then start the track. When I return to the car, I go back and stop the track and stop navigating. Getting home and transferring downloading the tracklog, it usually shows up as my road drive and continues right to the summit. Any idea whats going on as the GPS has been turned off all the way down in the car? Could it be possible that when I plug it into the computer in the USB connection, it starts up navigating, and if I don't remember to go in and shut something off, thats where it begins the track when I head out of town on the road, and turn it on at the trailhead?

As to the lithium problem, DougPaul mentioned the same "fix" as Garmin told you in this post:

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showpost.php?p=158254&postcount=3

DougPaul said:

There has been a problem found with some of the recent Garmin GPSes (*x models, using the SiRF III chipset) using new lithium batteries--they detect an overvoltage and shutdown. Garmin's suggested work around is to use the batteries in something else for a bit before putting them in the GPS. (New lithium batteries output a higher voltage when new--it drops to a lower constant level after a bit of use. See http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf.) This would also help to reduce the risk to LED headlamps.

Doug

Click to expand...

On the tracklogs.

When you are starting the track log in your car at the trial head are you waiting to start the tracklog after you have satellite lock? I think if you start the tracklog before you have lock then it will start the track log at your last known position, which was I think you said as you were driving to the trail head.


I would say the most likely possibility is under the "Tracks" section of your GPS unit, you have a certain percentage already used from a previous track log. (just under the area where you turn the tracks on and off.)

I would save the previous track log, and name it. (or you could delete it if you have already down loaded it on your computer.) This track log will show up in the bottom "Saved Tracks" section. Then delete the track log with the percentage on top. You are now starting a fresh new track log for this hike. And make sure you turn off the track at the end of the hike, as when you use the GPS again it will continue making a track whenever you turn the unit on.

This will solve the problem of your GPS continuing a previous track log hike, which causes that ugly jump on your software map connecting the two hikes or while you were driving.

Or it could be your GPS is screwing with you on purpose.

Peakbagr said:

Q1) Fresh lithium batteries in a Garmin GPS Map60CSx cause it to turn off.

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The GPS appears to use a regulator on the battery input. This converts a range of input voltages (due to battery type and condition) into a constant voltage for use by the internal circuits. The GPS measures the input voltage (you can see it on the diagnostics page--hold down enter when turning the GPS on) and presumably shuts down when the voltage is out of range. Lithium batteries put out a slightly higher voltage under certain conditions (eg when new)--see http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf. This higher voltage is above the upper cutoff of some of the recent Garmin *x (SiRF III GPS chipset) models. This problem has not been observed in the pre *x models.

IMO, this is a hardware design error. Garmin's work-around may enable you to use lithium batteries, but you have to waste some of their energy first. IMO, a poor solution. And, of course, you could be caught with fresh batteries and no way to run them down prior to use in the GPS... This does not appear to be affected by the software version or battery type selection. (The battery type selection appears to affect only the battery meter, not any of the funtional capabilities or the cut-out voltages.)

I suggest that you take a look at NiMH rechargable cells. Given the rate at which GPSes consume batteries (in particular, expensive lithium cells), NiMHs are ultimately much cheaper. (I have made recommendations on chargers in other theads. My current favorite is the Maha MH-C401FS.) They are a bit heavier than the lithiums, so I frequently hike with NiMHs in my headlamp and GPS and carry lithium spares. Since I use my digital camera in short bursts, I usually put lithiums in it to save weight.

My other question has to do with tracklogs. <snip>

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Q2) how to control tracklog recording.

Basically, the GPS records a track anytime tracklog recording is turned on and it has a fix. There will be breaks in the track whenever the unit is turned off or it loses sufficient satellite lock.

(The following is for the 60CS--I don't have a 60CSx. Presumably the user interfaces are similar.) There is a menu under the map display which allows you to turn tracklog recording on and off. (Navigation is a completely separate function--it does not affect tracklog recording.) You can also clear the tracklog at the start of a hike from the menu under the "Trip Computer" page. You can also cause breaks in the tracklog by power cycling the GPS at the beginning and end of your hike. This will make it easier to edit out the desired tracklog segment.

The software that you use to view the tracklog can treat the tracklog in several ways. Depending on the mode, it may also connect tracklog segments together. Some software also gives you the capability of editing the tracklog.

FWIW, I'm generally busy enough at the trailhead that I forget to reset the trip computer, etc. I just change to fresh NiMHs, perhaps turn the GPS on, and stick it on my pack strap. I don't usually bother to look at the track unless something interesting happened (eg I got off route or bushwacked).

Doing detailed fiddling with the menus in the rush to get going at the trailhead is likely to result in mode errors. (Unfortunately there are no presets which would allow you to preprogram, say a car mode and a hiking mode.) You might look into editing the track on your computer after the fact to isolate the section of track that you wish to save.

BTW, saving a track loses the time and altitude info in the saved track. The daily auto-saved tracks on the memory card retain this info.

BTW2: When I connect my GPS to my computer, I usually turn the GPS (receiver) off (menu from the satellite page). Saves the batteries, minimizes the chance that the batteries will run down while interacting with the computer, and stops tracklog recording.

Doug

60CSx has a way to save a user-designated portion of the track that can solve this if you don't get the result you expected. Check your manual starting at page 26.

Peakbagr said:

I really like the Garmin GPS Map60CSx. Its so much fun to be watching where you are on a moving map and the ability to adjust to the terrain to update your route without stopping in the wind or rain to fish a wet map out of the pack.?

Click to expand...

To be sure! I am so impressed with this GPSr for many reasons. The absolute best part is the signal is always there, and without an accessory antennia! It never loses it. No more holding the thing up in the air at arms length for half a mile because of tree cover, sunspots or whatever. We might as well be carrying a brick if the thing is not picking up the satellites. I always use alkaline batteries, I have kids with lots of toys, so AA batteries are always around.

Peakbagr said:

Getting home and transferring downloading the tracklog, it usually shows up as my road drive and continues right to the summit. Any idea whats going on as the GPS has been turned off all the way down in the car? Could it be possible that when I plug it into the computer in the USB connection, it starts up navigating, and if I don't remember to go in and shut something off, thats where it begins the track when I head out of town on the road, and turn it on at the trailhead?

Click to expand...

This just does not bother me, as you can cut & paste the trackpoints with Garman MapSource software.

Sardog, I've used the function keys to do this. It asks where you want to save it from and I go to the Trailhead.
I'd rather avoid messing with that, though.

For a really clean recording of the Active Track for the hike I turn the unit on at the trail head while I'm getting ready so it locks up nicely. Then I clear the Track Log then leave it on all day and shut it off when back to the trail head.

When I pre load an Active Track from my files for the hike that makes the above out of the question so when I get back I load it into Mapsourse and delete the old trackout of this new file and any other stray points or non needed points saving only the more recent one if better or different then the saved one from my files..

I only use nimh's as well. I take Lithium for back up in the winter in case of failure by nimh's but I've never had that happen even down to 0.. in my 60cs or 76S's

CaptCaper said:

For a really clean recording of the Active Track for the hike I turn the unit on at the trail head while I'm getting ready so it locks up nicely. Then I clear the Track Log then leave it on all day and shut it off when back to the trail head.

Click to expand...

There is a disadvantage with this strategy if you have an auto-calibrating barometric altimeter (Garmin *S* models). They require .5+ hours to calibrate. I leave mine turned on in the car on the drive up to set the altimeter calibration and to make sure the unit has an up-to-date ephemeris (detailed orbital parameters used to calculate location) and an up-to-date almanac (coarse orbital parameters for all satellites to be used for finding satellites).

I either use car power during the drive up or switch batteries at the trailhead.

Doug

Paradox said:

To be sure! I am so impressed with this GPSr for many reasons. The absolute best part is the signal is always there, and without an accessory antennia! It never loses it. No more holding the thing up in the air at arms length for half a mile because of tree cover, sunspots or whatever.

Click to expand...

The SiRF III GPS chipset equipped GPSes are very good at acquiring and holding satellite lock. However, this does not mean that they are locked onto a good signal.

In general, a weak satellite signal is a poor signal. It has been attenuated, diffracted, reflected, or some combination of the above. These can affect the time-of-flight between the satellite and the GPSR. The GPSR converts the time-of-flight to the pseudo-distance from each satellite. The pseudo-distances from 4 or more satellites are used to calculate your location and an inaccurate pseudo-distance will result in a less accurate location.

When the signal was too weak, the older GPSes would simply loose lock and could not use the poor quality pseudo-distances. The extra sensitivity of the SiRF III equipped GPSes allow them to continue to receive the poorer quality signals with the possibility of larger location errors.

I don't know of any creditable studies of what happens to the location accuracy when an SiRF III equipped GPS is receiving poor quality signals.

So if you really want to know where you are, you will still need to hold the GPS up in the air or go to a better location...

Doug

DougPaul said:

In general, a weak satellite signal is a poor signal. It has been attenuated, diffracted, reflected, or some combination of the above. These can affect the time-of-flight between the satellite and the GPSR. The GPSR converts the time-of-flight to the pseudo-distance from each satellite. The pseudo-distances from 4 or more satellites are used to calculate your location and an inaccurate pseudo-distance will result in a less accurate location.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but it seems to me that the same arguement would hold for an external antennia. The signal is still weaker, scattered, diffracted, refracted and so forth you are just using a better receiving device.

DougPaul said:

I don't know of any creditable studies of what happens to the location accuracy when an SiRF III equipped GPS is receiving poor quality signals.

So if you really want to know where you are, you will still need to hold the GPS up in the air or go to a better location...

Click to expand...

Again, I don't disagree, but in practice over the past 6 months, about 150 hiking miles and a few thousand driving miles, the accuracy and reproducability of the 60CSx far exceeds my expectations. I don't expect to be using it to guide munitions, where the inaccuracy might make for an international incident. And unlike my other units, I have yet to want to heave it into a cliff face in a fit of pique.

Paradox said:

I don't disagree, but it seems to me that the same arguement would hold for an external antennia. The signal is still weaker, scattered, diffracted, refracted and so forth you are just using a better receiving device.

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Yes-the signals received by both internal and external antennas will be degraded by path absorbtion, scattering, and diffraction.

An external antenna may not be any better than the internal antenna in a GPS mounted in the same location (depends on unpublished technical details--both contain passive antennas connected to low-noise amplifiers). Its primary advantage is that you can locate an external antenna in a good spot (eg above your head) while keeping the user-interaction parts of the GPS down where you can see them. The human body is just another signal absorber, scatterer, and diffracter...

If you start looking at survey grade equipment, then you start using ~1 ft diameter choke-ring antennas on a pole and sophisticated signal processing to remove the effects of multi-path (reflections and refractions). Bring your checkbook--many $$ required.

Again, I don't disagree, but in practice over the past 6 months, about 150 hiking miles and a few thousand driving miles, the accuracy and reproducability of the 60CSx far exceeds my expectations. I don't expect to be using it to guide munitions, where the inaccuracy might make for an international incident. And unlike my other units, I have yet to want to heave it into a cliff face in a fit of pique.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you like your GPS.

I did some antenna location comparisons using my 60CS while hiking this summer in some heavily treed hilly terrain including a narrow stream gully. I didn't have any way of checking my absolute accuracy, but I compared outgoing and return tracks. I recorded some of the tracks with the GPS carried in a small pouch mounted on my pack strap (case 1) and some of the tracks with an external antenna mounted on top of my hat (case 2). In case 1, the tracks differed at many (most?) points (max ~300 ft) and in case 2, the tracks differed in only a few points (max ~30 ft). Obviously, this test doesn't differentiate between the effects of the different antennas and their locations, but I submit that the effect of the antenna location is much greater than the effect of the different antennas. Maybe the more sensitive SiRF III chipset would have yielded better positions maybe not. (It would, after all, be receiving the same signals as my unit possibly plus a few even more degraded signals.)

BTW, the primary advantage of the 60CSx over the 60CS is in the signal processing of the SiRF GPS chipset, not the antennas or amplifiers. (For the tecnically inclined, the SiRF chipset implements a greater number of correlators each at a narrower bandwidth (longer integration time) than the previous GPS chipsets. The large number of correlators reduces the lock-in times and the narrower bandwidth gives the greater sensitivity.)

If I had access to a 60CSx, it would be interesting to make some careful comparisons... Actually, a pair of 60CS-es and a pair of 60CSx-es would enable one to compare both the reception capability and effects of internal vs external antennas.

There is more info on external antennas in the following threads:
External antenna for hiking GPSr
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11762
Question on GPS use under heavy canopy: Garmin vs Magellan
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7393
Help with GPS
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6583
GPS?
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6720
Owls Head Bushwack
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7172
Which GPS is best ?
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11144

Doug

DougPaul said:

There is a disadvantage with this strategy if you have an auto-calibrating barometric altimeter (Garmin *S* models). They require .5+ hours to calibrate. I leave mine turned on in the car on the drive up to set the altimeter calibration and to make sure the unit has an up-to-date ephemeris (detailed orbital parameters used to calculate location) and an up-to-date almanac (coarse orbital parameters for all satellites to be used for finding satellites).

I either use car power during the drive up or switch batteries at the trailhead.

Doug

Click to expand...

I agree that you have to leave it running to get a better reading with the S models. Also we should point out if one hasn't used it for a while it should be turned on and settled in good before the hike anyway possible because it needs the different levels of data sent out by the birds to get a fast and accurate fix when turned on. I'll turn it on the day before,night before or one the ride to the trail head. I usually turn it on the night before and leave it running for 1 1/2 hours to get updated.
These are things these guys have got to learn to get the accuracy and steady data available from the GPS. I wouldn't hike with a guy using one in an emergency situation if he didn't know this.

I forgot to mention it takes me a while to get dressed anyway. Ha.
Also from what I read it takes even longer to get a good steady reading. At least an hour. That's why I leave it on all day. I did say "lock up good".

I wouldn't hike without an external I don't think its possible to hold the gps upright well while hiking. Signals will be lost as scattered in the long run. An external will be steady.That's why I won't go there about not using one. Even with a X model.
The guys from the GEO Cache form told me an antenna with the X still pulls in better signals. For $20.00 I'll error on the side I know produces excellent results.

Also back to an article I read it said "Externals pick up the birds lower on the horizon and uses them if needed over an internal one." Unless these receivers have changed there antennas.

Also the externals are amplify the signals. That can't be bad.

I emailed GPS Geek and asked him about this. I only got this sparse reply but a reply.

"Yes the external antenna will get a better more consistent signal. If
you are going to be outside and have on person we suggest the 28dB model
since it has internal ground plane"

Just some info here to help the "Green Horns out there"

Have fun quoting.


Safe hiking

DougPaul said:

If I had access to a 60CSx, it would be interesting to make some careful comparisons... Actually, a pair of 60CS-es and a pair of 60CSx-es would enable one to compare both the reception capability and effects of internal vs external antennas.
Doug

Click to expand...

Lets do it! Sounds like fun. I do have an external antenna for mine but never use it.

CaptCaper said:

I agree that you have to leave it running to get a better reading with the S models. Also we should point out if one hasn't used it for a while it should be turned on and settled in good before the hike anyway possible because it needs the different levels of data sent out by the birds to get a fast and accurate fix when turned on. I'll turn it on the day before,night before or one the ride to the trail head. I usually turn it on the night before and leave it running for 1 1/2 hours to get updated.

Click to expand...

These "levels of data" are the almanac and ephemeris that I described in an earlier post. On the Garmin satellite page display, a hollow bar means that the search (in doppler shift and time delay) has found a satellite and when it turns solid, the ephemeris has been downloaded (~30 sec). It takes about 15 minutes to download a full almanac if the signals are good the entire time. Auto-calibrating the barometric altimeter can take .5--1 hr or so.

So there are several restarting conditions:
* A hot start (current almanac and ephermeris, known starting location (eg turn the GPS off then on)) can give you a fix in 15 or so seconds.
* A warm start (current almanac, known starting position (eg turn GPS off, wait a few hours, and turn it back on without moving it any significant distance) ~45 sec.
* A cold start (the GPS has been turned off for months, no almanac, or unknown location): ~3 min.

(All of the above times assume a good skyview and assume that WAAS is turned off--WAAS can take a lot longer to get going.)

These are things these guys have got to learn to get the accuracy and steady data available from the GPS. I wouldn't hike with a guy using one in an emergency situation if he didn't know this.

Click to expand...

A bit overcautious--once you get a fix and wait 10-30 sec for it to settle, the fix will be as good as it is going to get. Perhaps give it another few minutes if the GPS seems to be acquiring more satellites.

I wouldn't hike without an external I don't think its possible to hold the gps upright well while hiking. Signals will be lost as scattered in the long run. An external will be steady.That's why I won't go there about not using one. Even with a X model.

Click to expand...

Depends on your intended use: if you want to record the most accurate tracks that your equipment will allow, then use an external antenna. If you just want to navigate, an external antenna is generally not needed. (You can stop and hold the GPS up in the air when you need the greatest accuracy. The rest of the time, a less accurate fix is adequate.)

An external antenna increases the the hassle factor--there is a wire to tangle or catch in the bushes etc. I personally don't bother bringing or using one unless I know that I will want the extra accuracy (for instance, for mapping a trail).

The guys from the GEO Cache form told me an antenna with the X still pulls in better signals. For $20.00 I'll error on the side I know produces excellent results.

Click to expand...

GPSes are highly technical microwave radios--lots of people, including salesmen, don't really understand many of the details. (And salesmen, of course, have incentive to sell you things...)

If you carry the GPS in the same place that you put the external antenna, the GPS will generally do about as well with its internal antenna. As I have said many times, the primary advantage of an external antenna is that you can place it in a location that is clear of the local obstacles (ie above your head) and still keep the display and controls down where you can use them.

Also back to an article I read it said "Externals pick up the birds lower on the horizon and uses them if needed over an internal one." Unless these receivers have changed there antennas.

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Sorry. Higher antennas (internal or external) are more likely to have an unobstructed horizon. And GPSes have a cut-off angle--a satellite has to be so many degrees above the horizon for the GPS to use it. The closer a satellite is to the horizon, the more likely its signal is damaged (by reflections, difraction, multipath etc). (This cutoff is independent of the antenna. Some professional units allow you to set the cutoff angle, consumer units generally do not.)

Also the externals are amplify the signals. That can't be bad.

I emailed GPS Geek and asked him about this. I only got this sparse reply but a reply.

"Yes the external antenna will get a better more consistent signal. If
you are going to be outside and have on person we suggest the 28dB model
since it has internal ground plane"

Click to expand...

More salesmen.

The additional amplification can be bad--it can cause the front-end to overload. Also all amplifers add noise to the signal. The key issue is signal-to-noise ratio. (Both the GPS and external antennas contain a passive antenna connected to a low-noise amplifier.) If you have a lower-noise amplifier in the GPS, it can be better than a higher-noise amplifier in an external antenna.

You frequently get a better signal from an external antenna not because it is external or has an amplifier, but because you put it in a better location than you put the GPS.

The references in my earlier post (#12, this thread), have more info about internal vs external antennas and signal-to-noise ratios--check them out. It is too much to replicate here.

Have fun quoting.

Click to expand...

It can get to be hard work... ? ?

Doug

PS: a tip:
Do not use battery-saving mode on a GPS when using it in less than ideal receiving conditions. It can cause the GPS to lose lock on the satellites. (Battery-saving mode turns the GPS receiver on and off and has to reacqure the satellites every time it turns back on.)

Wow, DougPaul you really know your stuff! Thanks for the great info.

Holy Cripes!!! I was just starting to digest the first few posts, and then the Oxford Dictionary of GPS stuff lands on me.
This is definitely a thread for the printer. Thanks for the ongoing eduction, guys.

Lot's of speculation and possible misinformation here so no one should take any of this posting to be etched in stone. Find out for your self like I did. I never take anyones info to be etched in stone

From all my expeirences with and with out an antenna and from what I've read in the past from testers I think the bottom line for me anyway is that if you want good data and accuracy while hiking use an external antenna. All other ways are not going to measure up one way or the other period.

Before I had an antenna I was holding the gps and muching on some nuts. Before you know it I had chomped on my GPS and shocked my tongue.

CaptCaper said:

From all my expeirences with and with out an antenna and from what I've read in the past from testers I think the bottom line for me anyway is that if you want good data and accuracy while hiking use an external antenna. All other ways are not going to measure up one way or the other period.

Click to expand...

In practice most people will get better tracks using an external antenna because they mount it in a better location than they carry the GPS. Too much work to hold the GPS up in the air all the time...

I have carried a GPS on my hat (Etrex Vista clipped to the tightening strap of a baseball cap) because I had left my pack behind and that was the best place to carry it. I expect that it recorded a fairly good track, but I didn't check it.

Before I had an antenna I was holding the gps and muching on some nuts. Before you know it I had chomped on my GPS and shocked my tongue.

Click to expand...

Eating and GPSing at the same time can be hazardous to one's health...

Warning--some of the external antennas are bite size. Look twice before you eat that black lolipop with a flimsy handle.

Doug

Paradox said:

To be sure! I am so impressed with this GPSr for many reasons. The absolute best part is the signal is always there, and without an accessory antennia! It never loses it. No more holding the thing up in the air at arms length for half a mile because of tree cover, sunspots or whatever. We might as well be carrying a brick if the thing is not picking up the satellites.

Click to expand...

don't I know it I have a lowrance ifinder and the thing seems to have "lost confidence" in the last few months (used to acquire lock quickly), it gets GPS lock but then won't get an EPE smaller than 100m, it takes it about 15-20 minutes with good reception (no/few trees) to finally get its act together. and my battery door broke after < 18months of use, and I never hear back from the customer service people. I may be looking at Garmins next spring.