Which GPS is best ?

Hi there !

I need some advice as of which GPS to buy. I've seen several things to look for the ideal hiking gps, talked to several salesmen, but none of them could answer a peakbagger/bushwalker's questions. (Please note that I'm cleary going towards the Garmin product range so my problem descriptions will only include Garmin products.). I go hiking even if it's raining and would bring the GPS in all kind of conditions (4-seasons).

-mapping capability: Is that a must for a peakbagger's GPS ? I know it is not necessary because I can search on the web the exact coords of the location I want to reach and I'll have to bring a topo map of the area anyway. Of course it's handy to locate yourself or even name the summits around you, etc…Why should I my GPS have a mapping capability ?

-reception: I heard the eTrex series were loosing signals more often than the Rino's and/or 60 series since they have an internal antenna compared to an external quad helix antenna. Is that a fact ? Also, since I'm using my gps to get "up" somewhere, don't you guys agree that with each step I make, I'm going towards a better reception ? So I was thinking that maybe reception is not that much of an issue, because more than often, I'll be loosing my signal in route, but probably will get the signal back when it is time to be more accurate (ie. On top of a mountain looking for a canister.). On top of that, I'll always go in the right direction if I have an electronic compass (discussed later…). What are your thoughts ?

-accuracy: From what I gathered, they pretty much have all the same accuracy (all WAAS enabled, etc…). This is much of a factor since more than often I'm looking for a canister nailed to a tree.

-Altimeter. Do you guys feel this is a "must" on a GPS ? Of course it can tell me approximately how much elevation I gained or that I still need to gain, it can tell me if I'm real close to the summit or not, etc…But I also heard that altimeters were not that accurate anyway, even the barometric ones…Do you feel an avid peakbagger needs an altimeter and if so, of what kind (barometric or GPS only) ?

-Compass. From what I see, if I have mapping capability, the compass is almost mandatory. It is real handy to locate yourself when standing still and will always tell you in what direction to go. What happens when your GPS don't have it ? Do you recommend having one on a GPS.

-Power. I guess you guys are leaving your GPS open the whole time you're hiking right ? If so, please tell me why (and what you leave open) as compared as if I'd closed everything besides the compass ? I'm asking to know if batteries life on a GPS is much of a factor. For some unknown reasons, color units have as much as 30 hours of life, compared to mid/end-10s for black & white units.

-Cold. Most people are carrying their GPS outside their pack, around their neck or strapped to something to have the best reception possible at all time. What happens when it is windy and –20C outside ? Do you put your GPS inside your gore-tex or something ? I guess cold must be eating batteries too.

-A general comparison of reception between eTrex series and quad elix antennas series (60 and Rinos) and how this affect your peakbagging would be handy for my decision.

This is a long post but I think it's an important piece of gear and I really want one that fits my needs.

Thanks !

First of all, there is no such thing as "the universal best" GPS. Needs, tastes, and monetary resources vary.

Motabobo said:

-mapping capability: Is that a must for a peakbagger's GPS ? I know it is not necessary because I can search on the web the exact coords of the location I want to reach and I'll have to bring a topo map of the area anyway. Of course it's handy to locate yourself or even name the summits around you, etc…Why should I my GPS have a mapping capability ?

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Mapping capability is not required, but IMO, is very useful. It means that you can see your (or any) location plotted on a map. Much easier and more intuitive than transferring Lat/Lon (or UTM) coordinates around. People who don't have mapping units tend to program in waypoints for features of interest along their route before leaving home.

-reception: I heard the eTrex series were loosing signals more often than the Rino's and/or 60 series since they have an internal antenna compared to an external quad helix antenna. Is that a fact ? Also, since I'm using my gps to get "up" somewhere, don't you guys agree that with each step I make, I'm going towards a better reception ? So I was thinking that maybe reception is not that much of an issue, because more than often, I'll be loosing my signal in route, but probably will get the signal back when it is time to be more accurate (ie. On top of a mountain looking for a canister.). On top of that, I'll always go in the right direction if I have an electronic compass (discussed later…). What are your thoughts ?

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Both antenna types have similar performance. Many people don't know how to orient them and some have been seen with their thumb over a patch antenna wondering why the signals are weak. (Flesh absorbs the signals.)

You can use a GPS to find the general location of a cannister, but people have been able to find them for years by using terrain features and their eyes. And it is always possible that you have been given inaccurate cannister coordinates. GPSes are also more accurate than many maps...

-accuracy: From what I gathered, they pretty much have all the same accuracy (all WAAS enabled, etc…). This is much of a factor since more than often I'm looking for a canister nailed to a tree.

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All consumer hiking GPSes have essentially the same accuracy. WAAS is much hyped, but is frequently unavailable in the hills (the sats are low on the horizon), consumes power, and can cause problems. I don't use it when hiking.

-Altimeter. Do you guys feel this is a "must" on a GPS ? Of course it can tell me approximately how much elevation I gained or that I still need to gain, it can tell me if I'm real close to the summit or not, etc…But I also heard that altimeters were not that accurate anyway, even the barometric ones…Do you feel an avid peakbagger needs an altimeter and if so, of what kind (barometric or GPS only) ?

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Not a must, but I like it. A GPS auto-calibrated barometric altimeter is generally more accurate than the GPS altitude alone.

-Compass. From what I see, if I have mapping capability, the compass is almost mandatory. It is real handy to locate yourself when standing still and will always tell you in what direction to go. What happens when your GPS don't have it ? Do you recommend having one on a GPS.

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The internal electronic compasses are generally less accurate than a good hand compass. They also consume power, but fortunately they can be turned off. Mine stays off--I never use it. I use a hand compass if needed.

-Power. I guess you guys are leaving your GPS open the whole time you're hiking right ? If so, please tell me why (and what you leave open) as compared as if I'd closed everything besides the compass ? I'm asking to know if batteries life on a GPS is much of a factor. For some unknown reasons, color units have as much as 30 hours of life, compared to mid/end-10s for black & white units.

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The newer units have lower power electronics. And color is generally found only on newer units. (Keep the compass, WAAS, and backlight off to maximize battery life.)

If you really want to maximize battery life, keep it turned off. Only turn it on when you need a location fix. You can get weeks to months of battery life this way.

-Cold. Most people are carrying their GPS outside their pack, around their neck or strapped to something to have the best reception possible at all time. What happens when it is windy and –20C outside ? Do you put your GPS inside your gore-tex or something ? I guess cold must be eating batteries too.

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Use lithium batteries in the cold. Good to about -40 or so.

-A general comparison of reception between eTrex series and quad elix antennas series (60 and Rinos) and how this affect your peakbagging would be handy for my decision.

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I have both an eTrex Vista and a 60CS. Both work adequately, the 60CS is nicer and more expensive.

If you get a mapping unit, don't forget that you will have to buy maps (from the same manufacturer). Check out the available maps and their quality before choosing a mapping GPS.

Lots of good info at:
http://www.gpsinformation.net/
http://www.edu-observatory.org/gps/gps.html

Info on Garmin GPSes at:
http://www.garmin.com/

Doug

Compass. From what I see, if I have mapping capability, the compass is almost mandatory. It is real handy to locate yourself when standing still and will always tell you in what direction to go. What happens when your GPS don't have it ? Do you recommend having one on a GPS.

Absolutely!!!!!YES
If you are on a goto & are standing still the screen will float arround & not point in the correct direction. Go in your yard or anyones & try it for youself.
If you are using as a nice toy to just show you what you did, then no.

The reason e-trex's & a few others loose their fixes is largely due to where hikers have them. They have a patch antenna. That means they should lay flat to view the sky. A case on your shoulder strap works great. I see people put them in their pockets. Wrong!
The 60cs has a better one with mapping etc. Nice, but not needed. It was my first choice. But after researching reality, if you will, it would have been a waste of money for the application.
Now if you were out on the ocean, I would say get the biggest, best, color mapping unit you can afford.

I'm glad to see you sticking with Garmin. They are the best to stay with IMHO.
Be glad to advise on a couple of units, but go with what you're comfortable with. Spend time in the stores & play with the buttons. You should be comfortable with the unit & how it works.

WildPeaks said:

Compass. From what I see, if I have mapping capability, the compass is almost mandatory. It is real handy to locate yourself when standing still and will always tell you in what direction to go. What happens when your GPS don't have it ? Do you recommend having one on a GPS.

Absolutely!!!!!YES
If you are on a goto & are standing still the screen will float arround & not point in the correct direction. Go in your yard or anyones & try it for youself.
If you are using as a nice toy to just show you what you did, then no.

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This only happens if you have the map display set to track up mode. (When you stop moving, the GPS can no longer tell which direction you are moving so it does not know how to orient the map.) If you have the map display set to north up mode, the map always stays north up no matter what you do.

I use north up mode, and therefore have no such problem. (I also hold my maps north up.)

BTW, if you use the magnetic compass, make sure you recalibrate the compass every time you change or disturb the batteries.

BTW2, the magnetic compass is only accurate when the GPS unit is horizontal--compatible with the eTrex line's patch antenna, but incompatible with the 60 and 70 lines quad helix antenna (which wants to be vertical).

Doug

That was a 5 star reply DougPaul. In addition to a Ph.D in headlampology allow me to bestow an honorary doctorate in GPS technology upon you.

DougPaul said:

Both antenna types have similar performance. Many people don't know how to orient them

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THIS is how it's done by the pros.

Neil said:

THIS is how it's done by the pros.

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That will certainly do the job!

However, an extenal (or reradiating) antenna mounted on top of your hat is a little less obvious... Also makes it easier to read the GPS without losing lock. Tilly hats have a pocket in the crown, so you can hide the antenna. If you have long dark hair, it will be easy to hide the cable too.

A simple trick is to clip the belt clip onto the adjusting strap at the back of a baseball cap. Not quite as good as the above picture, but fast, simple, and nothing special required.

Doug

Neil: that looks sexy !

Doug, I'm not sure I follow you there : " This only happens if you have the map display set to track up mode. […] If you have the map display set to north up mode, the map always stays north up no matter what you do.", so I have a couple of questions for you :
1-In other words, I can still know where to go and where I am at any time, moving or not, if my map is always set to "north mode"…If this is the case, what's the use of having an electronic compass ?! The only thing I could think of is that using north mode, you are relying only on satellites reception while the compass will always work regardless of the reception, right ?
2-Also, is it easy to look at the direction to go on the gps and use a traditionnal compass instead of an electronic one ?
3-So you're basically saying that the GPSMAP 60CS which has a compass and altimeter is nonsense ? To get a better reception the unit has to be held vertically while the compass needs the unit to be held horizontally ?! Same thing with the Rino 130 I suppose…

To All: Then what's the catch between, let's say, a GPSMAP 60 and eTrex Vista C of Garmin ? They both have the same price, same features except; eTrex has an electronic compass, altimeter, color display, higher battery life, is lighter and has audible alarms. As you can see, there is at least 100$ of gadget in the eTrex that the GPSMAP 60 doesn't have…Of course the GPSMAP60 has a bigger screen but still…why do they have the same price ? Only because of the better antenna on the GPSMAP 60 ? Is it worth it ?

Thanks all for your input !

Motabobo,

You've got to be the final judge. If I'm going to get a unit with mapping capabilities, then I would go with the 60cs. due to the larger screen & better antenna.
And the cs model with the compass......and after you use track up mode, you'll see why. There's something nice about having a map oriented in the direction your traveling.

Motabobo said:

-Power. I guess you guys are leaving your GPS open the whole time you're hiking right ?

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I keep my GPS (with mapping capability) on all the time; it is like hiking with a topo that tracks your position in real time. Note that I use north up, more like a real topo. Also, I collect tracks, since the dotted lines on the topos (from which the GPS maps are derived) vary from fairly accurate to totally fictional (Osseo starting from the Kanc ).

That drains a lot of current, so long ago I switched to NiMH rechargeables. I drive with the GPS on, plugged into the lighter, so do not use battery but arrive at the trailhead with a good satellite fix. With the winter temps NiMH batteries do not last very long per charge, so I recharge them often. No big deal.

Collecting and sharing tracklogs is a whole lot of fun and those collected in the summer can come in handy in winter. Once you get the log downloaded into the computer you can do all sorts of wonderful things with it. My latest toy is a program called Topofusion that sticks a camera icon upon your track at each point where you took a picture. A couple of clicks on the map and you're looking at the picture you took from that exact spot. You can also "playback" your hike at varrying speeds and watch the little red squiggly line as it worms its way across the map. Practical app.? Distraction from sources of stress.

To get back on topic, my recommendation is to get something simple at first and then upgrade eventually if you feel the need. I believe the 60cs runs something like 600 CDN (plus 15% tax). You can get a lot of nice gear for that kind of dough.

Motabobo said:

Doug, I'm not sure I follow you there : " This only happens if you have the map display set to track up mode. […] If you have the map display set to north up mode, the map always stays north up no matter what you do.", so I have a couple of questions for you :
1-In other words, I can still know where to go and where I am at any time, moving or not, if my map is always set to "north mode"…If this is the case, what's the use of having an electronic compass ?! The only thing I could think of is that using north mode, you are relying only on satellites reception while the compass will always work regardless of the reception, right?

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I think you are confusing several things here.

Direction of motion:
1. If you are moving above a certain speed, the GPS alone can tell you which direction you are moving in using your changing position and the doppler shifts of the satellite signals. Note that this is based solely upon the motion of the GPS antenna and not its orientation.
2. If you are moving very slowly or stopped, the noise (random errors) in the position fix cause the position fix to wander around randomly. Under these conditions, the GPS cannot tell which direction you are moving.

Display orientation:
1. Strictly speaking, the map can be displayed in any orientation, just as you can hold a paper map at any angle.
2. There are 2 traditional map orientations: North up and oriented to match the surrounding terrain.
3. The GPS North up map orientation should be self-explanitory.
4. The GPS "Track Up" map orientation is an attempt to orient the map to match the surrounding terrain. It rotates the map so that your direction of travel is always toward the top. This assumes that you are holding the GPS top up and directly in front of you as if you were reading a book.

What direction are you going when you are stopped?
1. Due to the random noise in the position fix, the GPS cannot determine when you have stopped and thus cannot tell what direction you were moving just before you stopped.
2. The heuristic that is used in GPSes with a magnetic compass is to switch to the magnetic when the speed drops below some threshold. This again assumes that you are holding the GPS in the standard position mentioned above.

Which is better?
1. There are pros and cons to either--it is ultimately personal preference.
2. Most GPSes can display in either mode, so it should not be a factor in choosing a model.
3. I personally prefer North up, Wildpeaks seems to prefer track up.

2-Also, is it easy to look at the direction to go on the gps and use a traditionnal compass instead of an electronic one ?

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Trivial. The GPS outputs numerical headings/bearings (you can set them to true or magnetic headings/bearings to match your hand compass).

3-So you're basically saying that the GPSMAP 60CS which has a compass and altimeter is nonsense ? To get a better reception the unit has to be held vertically while the compass needs the unit to be held horizontally ?! Same thing with the Rino 130 I suppose…

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1. Garmin uses a 2 dimentional magnetic field sensor, so it must be oriented properly to operate properly. Thus the GPSes must be held in a horizontal orientation if you want accurate compass readings.
2. Some GPSes (eg eTrex series) must be oriented horizontally for best satellite reception. Thus the same orientation gives the best performance for both.
3. Some GPSes (eg Rhino, 60 series, and 72 series) must be oriented vertically for best satellite reception. Thus you may lose or reduce satellite reception when using the magnetic sensor. In many situations, the satellite reception will remain adequate or the GPS will remember your current location if you are stationary. No it is not nonsense--it is a design compromise.

To All: Then what's the catch between, let's say, a GPSMAP 60 and eTrex Vista C of Garmin ? They both have the same price, same features except; eTrex has an electronic compass, altimeter, color display, higher battery life, is lighter and has audible alarms. As you can see, there is at least 100$ of gadget in the eTrex that the GPSMAP 60 doesn't have…Of course the GPSMAP60 has a bigger screen but still…why do they have the same price ? Only because of the better antenna on the GPSMAP 60 ? Is it worth it ?

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Read the Garmin website more carefully--there are meaningful differences between all of the GPS models. The website also has a product comparison feature--use it to get an aligned table of features comparing several GPSes.

And as for one antenna type being better than the other, that is a MYTH. Consumer external antennas are generally patch antennas, not quad helicies. Accurate comparison of the antenna types requires professional level skills which are in short supply among those pushing this myth.

By way of qualifications, I am an electrical engineer with a radio background. I have been studying GPSes for several years and own two.

Your background in GPS seems to be spotty. I suggest that you spend some more time reading the references that I posted earlier. The answers to many of your questions and more can be found there. There is also very useful discussion in news://sci.geo.satellite-nav--the contributors range from beginners asking the usual beginner's questions to real experts. (I read it and the references for several months before choosing a GPS.)

GPSes are complicated but amazing little beasts. It takes a while to understand the details of the technology and the details of the consumer boxes. The basic GPS in all consumer GPSes is very similar--it receives the satellite signals and outputs time, position, and velocity; the rest is all presentation and user interface.

Doug

Neil said:

I believe the 60cs runs something like 600 CDN (plus 15% tax).

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I paid my 60CS $476.00 + tax, in december.

yvon said:

I paid my 60CS $476.00 + tax, in december.

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Wow! Garmin's site has the recommended price at just under $500 US.

Neil said:

Wow! Garmin's site has the recommended price at just under $500 US.

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You can generally get Garmin GPSes for a good bit under MSRP from the internet-based dealers. However, if you have problems, you may have to deal directly with Garmin for repair/replacement. And make sure that you deal with an authorized Garmin dealer or your warranty will be useless.

http://www.gpsinformation.net has a list of dealers.

Doug

One feature you don't mention is size and weight. I have a Geko 301, which is one of the smallest and lightest available; the foretrex for the wrist are maybe even a little smaller. This means they can be easily put in a pocket and/or are not adding much weight to carry around as toy. This was a major consideration for me.

For onboard maps on the GPS, sure maps would be nice sometimes, but you have to buy them from Garmin at around $100. I regularly go to Canada, so that is another $100. This is in addition to buying maps for your computer (both for the US and Canada). So instead of spending that $200 on the garmin maps, I skipped the map option. Maps for your computer though, either that you cobble together for free from various sources, or that you buy like Nat Geo Topo, are really mandatory to enjoy/use your GPS for bushwacking.

I like the built in compass and altimeter. I almost never use my GPS when I am moving; I pull it out when I am standing still. So having the compass to orient the display is nice. I also really like the altimeter for navigating, since for most things, that is much of what you need to know. I need to hit this ridge at 3000 ft, or transverse across here at 2200, etc. The altimeter works regardless of GPS reception. So that is nice to have IMO.

On the ADK forum, people seem to really like the Rhino's with the radio, in part because they have the external antenna, and seem to get better GPS reception. My garmin will struggle in the woods in my pocket, but does OK out on the pack in the winter.

DougPaul: Very valuable information, thank you.

And as for one antenna type being better than the other, that is a MYTH. Consumer external antennas are generally patch antennas, not quad helicies. Accurate comparison of the antenna types requires professional level skills which are in short supply among those pushing this myth.

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So you're confirming that the 60 series or eTrex series should have a very simliar reception ? In other words reception shouldn't be a factor to decide which one of the two I really need.

Read the Garmin website more carefully--there are meaningful differences between all of the GPS models. The website also has a product comparison feature--use it to get an aligned table of features comparing several GPSes.

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Actually I did a comparison between the GPSMAP 60 and the eTrex Vista C and didn't find any reason why the Vista C shouldn't be more expensive than the GPSMAP 60...I was inquiring about what I've missed in the comparison.

One more thing that is still unclear; in order to get that "Track Up" mode, I do not need an electronic compass. The only thing it does is to provide accurate information about which direction I'm heading towards to when I'm standing still, right ?

Motabobo said:

So you're confirming that the 60 series or eTrex series should have a very simliar reception ? In other words reception shouldn't be a factor to decide which one of the two I really need.

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That is not what I said--I said the antennas are comparable. The 60 series is newer and may have better electronics behind the antenna. Anecdotally, my 60CS appears to sync up faster than my eTrex Vista, but I haven't done many side-by-side comparisons.

The reports on the new SIRF-III front-end (in the 60..x and 72..x models) are indicating that it is even better. (The electronics consist of an RF front end and a microcomputer.)

Actually I did a comparison between the GPSMAP 60 and the eTrex Vista C and didn't find any reason why the Vista C shouldn't be more expensive than the GPSMAP 60...I was inquiring about what I've missed in the comparison.

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From the Garmin Comparison feature:
..............................Vista C ................... 60CS
Waypoints ............. 500 ........................ 1000
Mapping memory .... 24 MB ...................... 56 MB
Batt .......................... 32 hr ..................... 20 hr
display ................. 1.7 x 1.3 ................... 2.2 x 1.5
antenna ................. patch ...................... quad hellix
wt w batt .................. 5.5 oz ..................... 7.4 oz
size ......................4.2 x 2.3 x 1.2 .......... 6.1 x 2.4 x 1.3
interface ................... USB ....................... USB + serial
ext antenna ................ no ......................... yes

Note that the missing serial interface removes the NMEA protocol for communication. The external antenna is also very useful in some situations.

I find the larger memory userful and the larger display helps the aging eyes.

One more thing that is still unclear; in order to get that "Track Up" mode, I do not need an electronic compass. The only thing it does is to provide accurate information about which direction I'm heading towards to when I'm standing still, right ?

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Correct. The magnetic compass also allows one to take a sighting, but a decent hand sighting compass is more accurate (and doesn't require batteries).

I do, however, find the barometric altitude sensor to be useful (it is usually within 10 ft at the summits) and it is packaged with the magnetic compass. (I just leave the compass turned off.)

Doug

I see you are cross posting on the ADK forum and getting good advice there too. Another thing you haven't mentioned which I would consider to be a major difference in models is USB vs. Serial connection for the various mapping models. Again, I don't have maps, and only upload and download tracks and waypoints. But USB is way faster, and for mapping, probably worth it (even if you only upload maps once and a while). I know the vista-c has USB, but I am not sure about the other models you are considering, and the older, cheaper models do not have usb.

michaelb said:

I see you are cross posting on the ADK forum and getting good advice there too. Another thing you haven't mentioned which I would consider to be a major difference in models is USB vs. Serial connection for the various mapping models. Again, I don't have maps, and only upload and download tracks and waypoints. But USB is way faster, and for mapping, probably worth it (even if you only upload maps once and a while). I know the vista-c has USB, but I am not sure about the other models you are considering, and the older, cheaper models do not have usb.

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USB is faster, but more limited in capability. NMEA (a standard communications protocol) is serial only--a serious problem for some applications.

Doug

DougPaul :

..............................Vista C ................... 60CS

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I was comparing the GPSMAP 60, not GPSMAP 60CS
My point is why is the Vista C the same price if it has all those extras compared to the the GPSMAP 60 (color, altimeter, compass, lighter, higher battery life, etc...). But I think you summarized it when you said

The 60 series is newer

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.

Thanks all for your input, it cleared a lot of things in my mind