What about DEET?

What about it? Well, it bugs me (pun intended). I mean, it's nasty stuff for our environment, and possibly for our own health. I'm not a fan of DEET. I try to use alternatives.

There are plenty of older threads on the topic.

The best chemical defense is permethrin (a contact insecticide, Repel Permanone, Sawyer Permethrin) on your clothing and DEET on exposed skin.

DEET is safe when used properly.
Abstract:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...4982956791_6411&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm
Full article:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content...IRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm&journalcode=nejm
Note comments on safety near the end.
Excerpt:
"Despite the substantial attention paid by the lay press every year to the safety of DEET, this repellent has been subjected to more scientific and toxicologic scrutiny than any other repellent substance. The extensive accumulated toxicologic data on DEET have been reviewed elsewhere. DEET has a remarkable safety profile after 40 years of use and nearly 8 billion human applications. Fewer than 50 cases of serious toxic effects have been documented in the medical literature since 1960, and three quarters of them resolved without sequelae. Many of these cases of toxic effects involved long-term, heavy, frequent, or whole-body application of DEET. No correlation has been found between the concentration of DEET used and the risk of toxic effects. As part of the Reregistration Eligibility Decision on DEET, released in 1998, the Environmental Protection Agency reviewed the accumulated data on the toxicity of DEET and concluded that "normal use of DEET does not present a health concern to the general U.S. population." When applied with common sense, DEET-based repellents can be expected to provide a safe as well as a long-lasting repellent effect. Until a better repellent becomes available, DEET-based repellents remain the gold standard of protection under circumstances in which it is crucial to be protected against arthropod bites that might transmit disease."

Picaridin on skin is also effective.

Note: DEET and Picaridin are generally tested on mosquitoes, not ticks.

Permethrin is a commonly used agricultural pesticide. Not something you want to eat, apply to skin, or inhale, but it appears to be safe when applied to clothing (it binds to the fabric). (It is ineffective if applied to skin--a chemical reaction inactivates it.)
General info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin
Fact sheet:
http://www.safe2use.com/poisons-pesticides/pesticides/permethrin/cox-report/cox.htm
Highly toxic to cats and fish.

Doug

Until they come up with something that works better, I'll use DEET. There are SO many other things that are likely to kill me before DEET does...
As for the environmental impact, I suspect the drive to the trailhead is a lot worse than the miniscule amounts of DEET I use in a given summer. Not to mention, it prevents me from upsetting the ecological balance of region by swatting millions of mosquitoes..

Deet tends to be misapplied in far bigger doses than needed, plus the sale of 100% DEET as a marketing tool doesnt help. Most studies indicate that 30% DEET is the optimum amount with no real advantage to going with a stronger concentration. The only reasons to go stronger is if you have an overwhelming desire to melt any plastic item you touch . The other good reason for the manufacturer is that its a lot easy to buy some nice small bottles with fancy graphics and fill them directly out of a drum of DEET without going to the trouble of diluting it.

There are misunderstandings about DEET by the average user. DEET doesnt kill biting insects (I suppose they could drown in it) . All it really does is generates an odor that signals to the insect that the surface emitting the odor is not somewhere they can obtain a meal. Much as we would like to think, the critters arent out to harass us, they just want a meal, and if they dont think they can get one from you, they go elsewhere. If the bugs are particularly thick, they will tend to hang around as there are other cues that a meal is nearby such as carbon dioxide being exhaled, but once they land, the DEET odor keeps them from biting. The other major misconception is that DEET will keep large flies (deer flies and horseflies) from flying around and annoying you. Unfortunately, that isnt the case and "swimming" in DEET, wont make it better.

When I see people using a spray can to apply it, it pretty obvious that they are overapplying it. The recomended application is just a couple of small drops for ones legs and arms and maybe one more for the face and neck. Unlike sunscreen, more is not better. A 1 ounce container used properly should last the average weekend warrior years. I used to do surveying years ago for 5 days a week 8 hours per day and about 3 -1 ounce containers would last a summer season (I would normally misplace them before they were empty).

The military spent lots of bucks developing Ultrathon for long duration (12 hour) use in severe environments. Its 30% Deet that has a polymer that binds the Deet and keeps it from absorbing in the skin. I use it and find that if applies in the morning before the hike, its last all day. If applied in wet conditions or to wet skin, it doesnt last as long and takes more.

I use the 30% DEET. Had a bottle of 100% DEET a couple of years ago, but that stuff's so strong it made my eyes water, and was almost worse than getting bitten!

peakbagger said:

There are misunderstandings about DEET by the average user. DEET doesnt kill biting insects (I suppose they could drown in it) . All it really does is generates an odor that signals to the insect that the surface emitting the odor is not somewhere they can obtain a meal. Much as we would like to think, the critters arent out to harass us, they just want a meal, and if they dont think they can get one from you, they go elsewhere. If the bugs are particularly thick, they will tend to hang around as there are other cues that a meal is nearby such as carbon dioxide being exhaled, but once they land, the DEET odor keeps them from biting. The other major misconception is that DEET will keep large flies (deer flies and horseflies) from flying around and annoying you. Unfortunately, that isnt the case and "swimming" in DEET, wont make it better.

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There seem to be two theories about how DEET works--one is that it blocks the mosquito's sense of smell (they locate their victims by smell so it would be a "blinding" agent) or that its smell is offensive to mosquitoes (ie it actually repels them).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET

Insects that locate their victims by sight might not be affected by DEET, which might account for its ineffectiveness at defending against horseflies and deer flies. (Speculation--I have no references.)

Doug

I let the mafia teach me how to protect myself from the bugs. Equipment needed is a tweezers magnifying glass and pin. Catch one bug. Break a kneecap. Set him free with instructions to tell his friends that they'll get worse if they mess with me.

Use the magnifying glass to burn a foot on another. Set him free with the same instructions.

Learn to control the bugs with fear..... works for me.

I find Picaridin just as effective as DEET for skeeters, though it loses effectiveness faster. I use it mostly, except when I can only find my DEET. I am in health care and don't worry a whole lot about health hazards of DEET if you do need to use it, just don't use on small babies or on hands of toddlers (would favor clothes over skin too in munchkins, but do what you need to do) to minimize ingestion risks. 100% DEET is better as a solvent than a repellent, as others have said. In the words of a tropical medicine colleague: "DEET works. If you need it, use it."

For blackflies, use a physical barrier (clothes/headnet). I think they eat DEET for breakfast.

But anyway, I think DougPaul's and Peakbagger's synopses are better than you could get by reading for hours elsewhere online. They say it all.

Weatherman

peakbagger said:

When I see people using a spray can to apply it, it pretty obvious that they are overapplying it. The recomended application is just a couple of small drops for ones legs and arms and maybe one more for the face and neck.

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When using a spray can, I spray it onto my hand, then blot a few spots on my legs and arms, and then spread for coverage. This also helps with the wasteful wide angle sprays that can anger others nearby when it hits their eyes! Just don't pick your nose after spreading DEET with your hands!

weatherman said:

I think they eat DEET for breakfast.

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Clearly they don't eat DEET for breakfast.


It is more like a seasoning to them.

Keith

wyldeflower said:

What about it? Well, it bugs me (pun intended). I mean, it's nasty stuff for our environment, and possibly for our own health. I'm not a fan of DEET. I try to use alternatives.

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I find cold to be the best alternative.

In spite of all the tests which show that DEET is safe, some people still wonder about putting something that readily melts plastics on their skin... even in small quantities.

Oh yeah.... you should see what DEET covered hands do to condoms.

Ben's wilderness formula, I stand by that.

Quietman said:

When using a spray can, I spray it onto my hand, then blot a few spots on my legs and arms, and then spread for coverage. This also helps with the wasteful wide angle sprays that can anger others nearby when it hits their eyes!

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I prefer liquid or cream. Less wasteful, easier to control, smaller and lighter to carry.

Just don't pick your nose after spreading DEET with your hands!

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Wash your hands before handling food--it tastes terrible.

Somebody once sprayed some repellent upwind from me... Got hit in the face by the spray cloud. It also makes eyes sting.

FWIW, I apply permethrin to my clothing at home and only use DEET on my skin if the bugs are bad enough to be annoying. Keeping moving, wind, and cold also keep the flying bugs at bay.


Some tests have shown picaridin to as effective as 20% DEET on a particular species of mosquito. (Formal tests all seem to be performed on only the one species of mosquito. Hopefully the other species of bugs read the reports and follow the conclusions...) My personal results using it are consistent with the test results. Picaridin also does not damage plastics.

Doug

Pete_Hickey said:

In spite of all the tests which show that DEET is safe, some people still wonder about putting something that readily melts plastics on their skin... even in small quantities.

Oh yeah.... you should see what DEET covered hands do to condoms.

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OMG! I don't even want to know how you came by that bit of knowledge.

DougPaul said:

--it tastes terrible.

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It's one of those things you can 'taste' through your skin.[/QUOTE]
It's one of those things that, if you get enough on your skin, you can taste it, even none of it gets in your mouth. There are several 'chemicals' That get absorbed through the skin and can be tasted like this.

DougPaul said:

--it tastes terrible.

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Pete_Hickey said:

It's one of those things you can 'taste' through your skin.
It's one of those things that, if you get enough on your skin, you can taste it, even none of it gets in your mouth. There are several 'chemicals' That get absorbed through the skin and can be tasted like this.

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I don't recall ever "tasting" it through my skin. (But then I don't use it very often.) Just via the hand to food to mouth route.

Doug

I've never tasted it either. I did help my wife peel garlic for pickles with bare hands once and tasted it for the next day, so I understand the sensation!

Deet

Repel makes a lemon eucalyptus in a pump spray bottle that we find as effective as deet. No chemicals, and you both smell better when you get in the bags.

DougPaul said:

I don't recall ever "tasting" it through my skin. (But then I don't use it very often.) Just via the hand to food to mouth route.

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Try this experiment to show how you can taste things absorbed trough your skin.

Take a coupld cloves of garlic. Don't crush them, because then you'll get some on your hands which MAY lead to your mouth. Put the cloves of garlic in your book, and then go hiking for a bit, making sure that your foot, in the enclosed boot crushes the garlic.

It won't be long before you can taste it.

And Doug.... I know you're the type of guy wo WILL perform this experiment.(unless you're a vampire)