Choosing BC Skis

This is my second year on cross country skis and I'm enjoying it. I have graduated to faster classic touring skis that are appropriate mostly on groomed tracks. I think I'm all set there. I will try skate skiing next year.

My question here is about choosing backcountry skis. I am 6'/230lbs (plus more if I carry a backpack)

My use of the skis will be mostly on trips where one can not expect classic track but where the ground might be either packed down or snowy. If I could also use them on ski slopes trying to do some telemarking that would be a bonus.

I think I understand that wider means more flotation and relatively slower speed as opposed to narrower skis. I think I understand that wider will give me better control in rough ungroomed terrain.

Is it safe to assume at my weight the skis pretty much need be 200cm or longer. Does stiffness (klister?sp?) come into question for BC skis?

New skis will be probably shaped and lighter than older models.

Ah yes! The yearly "what ski should I buy?" thread...

Brambor said:

My question here is about choosing backcountry skis. I am 6'/230lbs (plus more if I carry a backpack)

My use of the skis will be mostly on trips where one can not expect classic track but where the ground might be either packed down or snowy. If I could also use them on ski slopes trying to do some telemarking that would be a bonus.

I think I understand that wider means more flotation and relatively slower speed as opposed to narrower skis. I think I understand that wider will give me better control in rough ungroomed terrain.

Is it safe to assume at my weight the skis pretty much need be 200cm or longer. Does stiffness (klister?sp?) come into question for BC skis?

New skis will be probably shaped and lighter than older models.

Click to expand...

For BC, one usually uses a wider ski than for (packed) track skiing. Typ 55 mm or greater at the waist. 10--20mm sidecut is good--more sidecut is better for turns, less is better for kick-and-glide. (sidecut=tip-waist. the tail is often ~avg of tip and waist) (Note: machine-set tracks are often ~65mm wide, so skis wider than 65 mm may not fit in ski-area tracks. For instance, my 65/54/60 skis can be used both BC and in track.)

Single camber is better for turns, camber-and-a-half is better for kick-and-glide. (Double camber is for tracks.) The camber should be a bit softer than for a track ski so it can handle soft snow.

Ski length varies with the model--check the weight vs length tables for your chosen ski. (A ski feels your weight, not your height or wrist altitude.)

You also need to choose wax or waxless skis. Wax works better in good snow conditions, waxless is easier to use/works better in warm, wet snow. (I have both and choose according to the snow conditions.)

Klister is a kind of wax used for wet, granular, or crusty snow. (The "hard" waxes are used for colder, fresh and/or fine-grained snow.)

Note: even waxless skis should be glide waxed. (Eg Swix F4, Swix CH7)

You will want metal edges for BC. Grooved skis track better, ungrooved turn better.

You will also need to choose the bindings--I recommend 3-pin for BC use. They are proven, rugged, and relatively field repairable.


See Dave.M's ski pages for more info: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

See also some of the past threads on the topic:
* XCountry Skiis: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19348
* Calling all backcountry skiing experts: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14065
* cc skiing: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16191
* Favorite Mountain Ski Approach: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15763
* Skins with Nordic BC: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16556

Doug

skiguy said:

Always good info Doug...although I think your slippin on your response time as it took well over an hour for you to post on this subject

Click to expand...

Sorry about the delay...

Don't forget that it took a while to craft my reply so I started to respond sooner than the post time. (Sorry, didn't record my start-of-response time...)


Lets see now... 5 inches of fresh snow (and more falling) at a temp of 20F--green or blue wax. What am I doing inside pounding on a keyboard when I could be outside skiing?

Doug

Length and Old Stuff

Hi Doug,

Please comment more on length choice for my height and weight (6,230). I understand that ski's come rated for weight but most are basically saying 189+ lbs

and your opinion on buying used vs new

and whether I can telemark on ski's that are at the maximum width of the ski track machine ?


Thank You

DougPaul said:

Lets see now... 5 inches of fresh snow (and more falling) at a temp of 20F--green or blue wax. What am I doing inside pounding on a keyboard when I could be outside skiing?

Click to expand...

If you are using Swix, then it is a blue day (CH6). It's no-way a green (CH4) day at 20 degrees. Unless you mean F4 which is in a green-ish (teal) container You want blue/V30 for kick wax...

When in doubt, use this:

http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/wizard2.html

Tim

Brambor said:

Please comment more on length choice for my height and weight (6,230). I understand that ski's come rated for weight but most are basically saying 189+ lbs

Click to expand...

Again, it depends on the ski. In general the longest ski for a given model will have the heaviest rating. Longer skis are faster and more stable at speed, but are harder to turn. Skis have generally gotten shorter of late--215cm skis are hard to find (and are probably an old model...). Just take yer best choice. If you have the ski in hand, try the paper test (don't forget your clothing and pack weight).

and your opinion on buying used vs new

Click to expand...

I believe an old heavily used ski can be worn out--(the camber weakens and may change shape). (Could someone more knowledgeable confirm this?) And, of course, a ski can be broken or damaged by rocks etc. (Moderate scratches in the base have little effect.) If you can get a used ski in good condition, go for it. FWIW, one of my favorite pairs of BC skis is over 20 years old.

and whether I can telemark on ski's that are at the maximum width of the ski track machine ?

Click to expand...

Yes if snow conditions are good and you know what you are doing. (An expert can Tele a pair of 2x4s in good snow conditions...) FWIW, I was doing some Teles on 67/56/58 Karhu Pinnacles (track-capable camber-and-a-half waxless BC) on a powder stash about 2 weeks ago. However, it was better a few days later with my Tua Traverse light-weight Tele skis (90/67/80, single camber--too wide for a machine-set track).

Note: Most XC ski areas groom for both skate and trad. You can certainly ski a wide ski on the flat skate area. FWIW, I often ski with a friend who uses skis with a 76mm shovel. She skis on the flat skate zone while I have a choice of flat or track.

Doug

bikehikeskifish said:

If you are using Swix, then it is a blue day (CH6). It's no-way a green (CH4) day at 20 degrees. Unless you mean F4 which is in a green-ish (teal) container You want blue/V30 for kick wax...

When in doubt, use this:

http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/wizard2.html

Click to expand...

I'm using Swix hard waxes on trad waxable skis. I also tend to wax softer than the guidelines (I like sticky skis), so blue would be my best guess. The skis currently have some old purple on them which I bet will work just fine.

For BC skiing, I wax the entire ski with the same kick wax so I can still get grip when only the tip and tail of the ski is on the snow (for instance when bridging a dip or stream). The kick wax glides perfectly well. (I only use different kick and glide waxes at groomed ski areas.)

Ultimately, I go by how the ski feels, not what some table says...

Doug

bikehikeskifish said:

If you are using Swix, then it is a blue day (CH6). It's no-way a green (CH4) day at 20 degrees. Unless you mean F4 which is in a green-ish (teal) container You want blue/V30 for kick wax...

When in doubt, use this:

http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/wizard2.html

Tim

Click to expand...

That is a pretty kool widget Tim. We have been using it some in the Ski Shop industry for awhile now with some good success. Not to drift to far but THIS
is an interesting developement in the world of Wax.

DougPaul said:

Ultimately, I go by how the ski feels, not what some table says...

Click to expand...

You have to start somewhere. If I drive 100+ miles to find out my skis 'feel' wrong, then what? Yeah, you can cork them or torch them, but the iron is best and the wax wizard is usually spot on -- note that you ought to pick "recreation" for BC - not gonna dump mucho buckos worth of racing wax on those skis. If you're at a Nordic center, you can probably find a wax room and fix them, but at the expense of 30+ minutes of skiing time.

DougPaul said:

I'm using Swix hard waxes on trad waxable skis. I also tend to wax softer than the guidelines (I like sticky skis), so blue would be my best guess. The skis currently have some old purple on them which I bet will work just fine.

Click to expand...

Waxing softer means that green (CH4) is definitely not a good choice for 20 degrees/new snow. Purple (CH7) is definitely in the softer range and it will work, but be a bit slower and not last as long. Most professional recommendations I have seen say to err on the harder/colder side when in doubt, or to layer (especially kick wax) colder first and warmer on top.

Like everything, you learn from experience.

Tim

In the grand scheme of things, skis are either designed to tour or to turn. There are skis that do both adequately, but neither of them really well. And the boot/binding combination play a big role in that as well.

There is no specific length recommendation, you'll probably have to get the longest in whatever ski you select. If you are interested in telemark turns you'll want 75mm 3-pin bindings. NNN-BC are not well suited for telemark turns. Honestly, boots are more important than the specific ski choice.

I'm a big fan of the lighter plastic touring boots, like the Garmont Excursion. It allows you to tour reasonably well, but also gives you the lateral support that makes turning possible. While I learned tele on softer leather boots, this is the minimum I'd recommend if you want to make turns.

For bindings you can go with standard 75mm telemark bindings or even better the Voile 3-pins with removable cables. They allow you to tour easily without the cables and then add the cables when you are going downhill.

For skis, there are touring models and hybrid models. The hybrids, like the Fischer Outtabounds, won't tour as well, and may be trouble in some set tracks, but can turn moderately well with the right boots and some skill. A more touring oriented ski would be something like the Fischer E99 which is great for kick and glide but is a bit difficult to turn in anything but perfect snow. Other brands have similar models, and there are several other models in each lineup.

All my skis are waxable, which is getting harder to find these days. Waxable will give you better performance climbing and gliding in nearly all conditions, but you have to learn how to wax and it's a little messy at times. In warm snow, waxless is undoubtedly easier and avoids having to use klister, which can be a mess. But in cold snow, waxable will tour faster and climb better, so you have to decide what you want to accomplish.

A Guide to BC Waxing

DougPaul said:

Ultimately, I go by how the ski feels, not what some table says...

Click to expand...

bikehikeskifish said:

You have to start somewhere. If I drive 100+ miles to find out my skis 'feel' wrong, then what? Yeah, you can cork them or torch them, but the iron is best and the wax wizard is usually spot on

Click to expand...

I drive my 150 miles to the trailhead and then field wax them--crayon the wax on and then cork it in. If I am not sure which wax to use, I start a bit on the hard (colder) side and if the skis are too slippery, then I put something a bit something a bit softer (warmer) on and repeat until the skis are sticky enough.

I have been out on a day where it started at ~-5F (special green with a green kicker) and finished around 30F (special purple). As the temps rose, I went sequentially through the waxes to match the warming conditions. There is no way to do this from home...

Waxing softer means that green (CH4) is definitely not a good choice for 20 degrees/new snow. Purple (CH7) is definitely in the softer range and it will work, but be a bit slower and not last as long. Most professional recommendations I have seen say to err on the harder/colder side when in doubt, or to layer (especially kick wax) colder first and warmer on top.

Click to expand...

I was referring to the Swix Vxx hard waxes, not the CHx glide waxes--this is BC skiing, not track skiing.

Like everything, you learn from experience.

Click to expand...

35 years of it here...


Basic guidelines for waxing trad skis for BC using the Swix Vxx line:
* Use a single wax on the entire ski for BC. (Save the separate kicker and glide waxes for the track.)
* You can put softer (warmer) wax over harder (colder) wax, not the other way around, so if you are not sure start with a harder wax. You can remove unwanted wax with a plastic scraper.
* A wax that is too hard is slippery, a wax that is too soft will grip very well but glide poorly. The right wax will both grip well and glide well. (A too-hard wax can be used as a glide wax if you want separate kick and glide waxes.)
* Thicker layers are effectively softer. Generally, a thin layer is all you need.
* Crayon the wax on and smooth with a cork.
* A wax takes ~100 yds of skiing to "set" properly, so ski on it a bit before evaluating it.

** So the procedure is:
1. Start with a wax that is a bit on the cold side. You can use a table, the guidelines written on the tubes, or experience to choose the first wax. Crayon it on and then cork it smooth.
2. Ski on it to evaluate. (How it feels is the bottom line.)
3. If it feels right (good grip and good glide), you are done. Go ski.
4. If it is too slippery, try the next softer wax (or a thicker layer if you only want a small change). Or if it is too grippy (no glide), scrape the wax off and apply a harder wax.
5. Go to 2.
Repeat if the snow conditions change.

This is how both experienced skiers and the beginners do it... (Even racers with professional wax technicians test their wax before the race and adjust if necessary.)

The above rules should sometimes be broken--for instance, there are conditions where one applies a layer of hard wax over a layer of soft wax. However, such conditions are fairly rare--don't worry about them until you are experienced.

A properly waxed ski out-grips and out-glides a waxless ski and can be tuned to meet your needs (eg extra grippy for efficient climbing or extra slippery for speed).

The above applies to generally dryish snow at or below ~32F. Warmer, wetter, crusty, frozen, or refrozen snow requires klisters (soft gooey waxes) which can be very messy. I use my waxless skis under these conditions (or do something else if the snow is really bad... ).

Note 1: racers and extra-serious skiers will melt wax in with an iron and scrape and brush the excess off for the best performance. You don't need to do this for good BC skiing (or even good recreational track skiing)--racers spend 99% of their effort to get the last 1% of performance. They will also spend far more on waxes and waxing gear than a recreational skier needs to spend...

Note 2: Waxless skis should be glide waxed. Use a Swix CHx wax or a universal glide wax such as Swix F4. It is best if ironed in, but you can also use paste or spray-on versions. (Paste works well for waxing the pattern without clogging it.)

Note 3: Swix isn't the only brand of wax. It is probably the most popular in the US and it is the line that I am familiar with.

Doug

David Metsky said:

For bindings you can go with standard 75mm telemark bindings or even better the Voile 3-pins with removable cables. They allow you to tour easily without the cables and then add the cables when you are going downhill.

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Just want to put in a plug for my favorite 3-pin binding for BC skis: the Rottefella Super Tele Binding. http://www.rei.com/product/790822

It doesn't take a cable, but is easier to enter and exit than the Voile. (I have both and frankly have never used the cable on my Voile. YMMV.)

This recommendation is for BC or lighter duty use--I have cable bindings on my heavy Tele skis.

Doug

I went back to waxless from waxable skis and still don't notice any performance differences, except that I can get on trail way sooner, don't have to be as careful with my kick, and don't have to drag around a bag of wax and grooming tools.

All too often the character of the snow would change on my trips...from fresh to packed track to refrozen etc. Not to mention the temperature changes on the same trip.... And I hated getting various bits of pine stuck in the wax on the bottom of the ski.

Waxless skis have certainly gotten better over time. But some are terrible...

I have recently used waxable (Tua Escape and Tua Traverse) skis and waxless (Kahru Pinnacle) skis on similar terrain and snow on nearly successive days. The waxless skis were freshly waxed with ironed-in Swix F4 low-fluoro universal glider and the waxable skies were waxed with violet V50 Swix hard wax (same wax on the entire ski), applied by crayoning and corking.

The glide of the waxless skis was surprisingly good--almost as good as the waxable skis. However, there was no contest on the grip (the skiing involved some hill climbing)--the waxable skis were much better.

Ironed in wax is supposed to work better than crayoned and corked, but I didn't try it. (Might try it this evening.) Had I waxed with kicker and glide zones, it probably would have improved the glide of the waxed skis. (Also not tested.)

Doug


EDIT: just got back from an hour on the skis with the ironed-in purple wax. (Actually it was purple over blue, scraped, then ironed in. Didn't bother to scrape and brush after ironing.) The glide was great, but the kick was a bit weak. (I was on a level rails-to-trails path, so I didn't need a strong kick.) The snow was 6 inches of ~7% powder (according to a weather forecast) at 20F.

For what you're describing, something with a shovel width in the 90mm range is probably more or less the sweet spot. There are a fair selection of them available in that range that will tour OK but also do reasonably well for you on lift-served downhill slopes. FWIW, I more or less live on a pair of waxable camber-and-a-half 190's that measure about 90/70/80, using them for everything from approaches to long hikes to skiing at downhill areas. For deeper unconsolidated snow I'd prefer something wider, but these seem to split duties pretty well all in all.

Tons of good info in this thread already;I'll just add that sometimes the best wax combo for BC involves waxing the whole ski with what the wax wizard says, then sweetening up the kick zone with the next warmer thing, i.e. wax the whole thing in extra blue, but give yourself 20 inches of violet underfoot. You run into a lot of irregular surfaces, and slipping is going to piss you off worse than not quite gliding enough will.

mirabela said:

For what you're describing, something with a shovel width in the 90mm range is probably more or less the sweet spot. There are a fair selection of them available in that range that will tour OK but also do reasonably well for you on lift-served downhill slopes. FWIW, I more or less live on a pair of waxable camber-and-a-half 190's that measure about 90/70/80, using them for everything from approaches to long hikes to skiing at downhill areas.

Click to expand...

Mirabela is talking about waxable skis here, but a caution about taking waxless skis to a downhill area: the downhill snow is often abrasive and can wear the kicker pattern down. You could also wear down non-metal edges.

Doug

Worth viewing: http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/index2.html - the Swix School / video + illustrations on how to wax.

Tim

does anyone know anything about the llbean boreal snowshoe/skis? they look like a ski but much shorter and wider

hikerfast said:

does anyone know anything about the llbean boreal snowshoe/skis? they look like a ski but much shorter and wider

Click to expand...

They look like firn gliders (or firn gleiters). They don't appear to be a substitute for "normal" skis.

Some info in: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10223

See http://telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8465 for more info.

A search brings up even more info: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=firn+glider&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=

Doug

Plastic

I saw them at Beans. They plastic bindings looked really flimsy and looked non-replaceable. The price was high for the perceived value.