Question on GPS use under heavy canopy: Garmin vs Magellan

After researching online for days, including reading past threads on this forum about GPS units, I was all set to go for a Garmin GPSMap 60CS until I read somewhere else that the Magellan GPS units hold a better lock under thick canopy than the Garmins do, according to a couple of users. However, I also did read someone else's opinion where he believed that Magellan, although it might hold a lock better in the woods, doesn't necessarily mean that the readings it's giving you at that time are accurate. So....does anyone have any actual experience in the field where a Magellan outperformed a Garmin under thick cover...or vice versa?

Also, I was wondering if anyone has any experience comparing a Garmin 60CS to a Garmin Vista C. Both are pretty much in the same price range. Quite often I use topo maps bushwhack to remote beaver ponds or stream tributaries in the pursuit of trout, so the canopy thing is of interest to me. Thanks for any feedback.

I think you have pretty much summed up the consensus on Garmin versus Magellan. I think the difference in performance is not that significant. Garmin has better mapping software availble, if that is important to you. I think it is more important how you carry the unit, that is it should be located on the top of your shoulder strap, rather than hanging from a ring near your sternum strap. I have had the Garmin Vista, and it performed significantly less well than the 76S I currently use. One thing with the Garmin 60 C is that it is shaped something like a potatoe, and so can not be carried on the top of your shoulder and is too bulky for my liking. My unit does not have color, and the units with color are easier to read, I would think about the Garmin 76CS, which fits well in some of the shoulder pouches now available. I have not found a shoulder pouch to interfere with the function of the antenna.

I stated that I have been using a Magellan Meridian Platinum (for 2-3 years) and had never lost lock due to tree canopy.

But DougPaul said that's just because Magellan's keep try to keep lock whereas Garmins do not.

If I were you, I would ask DougPaul to cite his source. I do have a Garmin Forerunner 201 wrist gps and can tell you that during a hike around the Bear Mountain Loop, the Garmin never got lock, whereas the Magellan never lost lock.

I believe most difference in performances can be explained by patch versus helix antenna configurations. AFAIK, the Garmin Etrex's have patch antennas and have the best performance when held like a TV remote. The Magellan units work best when they are held in vertical.

I think the discussion arose when someone stated that most GPSs were useless due to tree cover.

The patch antenna is why the e-trex performs less well. Both the 60 CS and the 76 CS have the same quad-helix antenna,which is why I say that having the same antenna and the approximately the same capabilities, it is going to boil down to personal preference. I work with large groups of GPSr users in SAR, and all of us use Garmin. This helps if we are trying to download track logs to a computer, it is really useful to all use the same cables, it also helps if you need assistance, to use the same GPS as 90% of the other users. Even amongst Garmin, there are three different types of cables, I was downloading tracks last week for a search and one of the search teams was using a Rhino 210, which I didn't have cables for. It's a little like Apple versus IBM, maybe Magellan is better in some respects, but compatibility counts for a lot.

We use the GArmin ll+ which is an older variation of the Garmin V unit. It works great in almost all conditions due to the external antenna. It takes 4 AA batteries with a battery life of up to 25 hours.

We also have an etrex unit and find it does not work well in the thick woods. We now save that for kayaking only since it is waterproof.

steppinwolf said:

After researching online for days, including reading past threads on this forum about GPS units, I was all set to go for a Garmin GPSMap 60CS until I read somewhere else that the Magellan GPS units hold a better lock under thick canopy than the Garmins do, according to a couple of users.

Click to expand...

This is a GPS legend that refuses to die...

Most GPS applications involve short-term signal blockage, for instance when the GPS passes through a tree radio-signal shadow. A GPS generally has the capability of dead-reckoning through a short signal dropout and reports the position and track to the user as if there was a good signal all the time. Now envision entering a tunnel. At some point the GPS has to give up dead reckoning and report a loss-of-signal (LOS). Garmin and Magellan use different thresholds for reporting LOS. Thus a Garmin may report more LOS events, but its position reports (and tracks) include fewer bad data points.

However, I also did read someone else's opinion where he believed that Magellan, although it might hold a lock better in the woods, doesn't necessarily mean that the readings it's giving you at that time are accurate.

Click to expand...

Megellan reports that it is holding a lock better in marginal conditions, but since it is likely to be dead reckoning, the reported positions may be inaccurate. And it doesn't tell you which is which.

Remix:
Don't remember the source off hand, but my info is based upon reports of side-by-side comarisons (probably on sci.geo.satellite-nav).


Another GPS myth that refuses to die:
Quadrifilar helix antennas are better than patch antennas. Side-by-side comparisons show little difference. Note that commercial consumer (and a number of professional) active external antennas use patch antennas, not helicies.

Doug

steppinwolf said:

Also, I was wondering if anyone has any experience comparing a Garmin 60CS to a Garmin Vista C. Both are pretty much in the same price range. Quite often I use topo maps bushwhack to remote beaver ponds or stream tributaries in the pursuit of trout, so the canopy thing is of interest to me. Thanks for any feedback.

Click to expand...

I have a Vista C and my friend has a 60CS. We both take them when camping and also geocaching and generally the major difference is that the 60CS has a bigger display and can hold more maps, it also has NMEA output and a serial as well as a USB connection. I like my Vista C a lot. For the same money I would probably go with the 60CS but their performance in the wild seems to be pretty much identical as near as I can tell anecdotally.

Any heavy conopy could be a problem. Remember that we are talking about microwave frequencies, very weak microwave signal, and that microwaves love to be goobled up by water and converted into heat. Plants and leaves are, of course, mostly water. Bottom line, expect to lose your signal under heavy conopy and make sure you map and compass work is up to snuff.

Oh yeah, I should also mention that what you are actually paying for is a wrapper. Not a GPS. The engine that is inside is only made by a few different people. What you are buying is a wrapper with different features that display the data in a manner that the manufacturer thinks that you will like. The basic data (the actual point on the ground) is the function of the GPS engine inside and that data varies very little from box to box.

Keith

I have an 60CS and think it's the one of the best Garmin has produced. I've used different Garmins and own a North Star commercial GPS as well since 1996.

I use an external antenna bought at www.gpsgeek.com for $20.00. It's small and sits on top of my pack. I have logged all 48 peaks and then some and never had a break in reception. Better accuracy with data also.

Without one that can't be done. I've tried to hang it on the pack but the pack and my body would be in the way. With the antenna at the top it has a clearer shot at the sky.

This is my experience with these things in the mountains.

The antenna has more gain and picks up more satellites that any stock antenna.



Good Luck

CaptCaper said:

I use an external antenna bought at www.gpsgeek.com for $20.00. It's small and sits on top of my pack. I have logged all 48 peaks and then some and never had a break in reception. Better accuracy with data also.
Good Luck

Click to expand...

Hi
I couldn't find the $20 antenna. All the Garmin ones are around $40 and up and most seem to be for automobile, avation and marine.

Thanks

Papa Bear said:

I couldn't find the $20 antenna. All the Garmin ones are around $40 and up and most seem to be for automobile, avation and marine.

Click to expand...

Try http://www.pc-mobile.net/gpsant.htm. GAST3X (mcx connector). $27.90. I have one--works well, smaller than most. Magnetic base--works on car or in/on pack. (Just keep it away from your compass when taking bearings.)

The also have the parts (battery pack and GPS-coupling antenna) to convert a standard amplified antenna into a reradiating antenna for GPSes without an external antenna jack.

standard disclaimer--just a customer, no connection.

Doug

Yes I see that now. They've gone up in price. They are a good antenna though. Although any of em will use a little more battery. I've found now the 60CS can go all day with the antenna with a set of rechargeables with no problem.

I have a few of them. One on the front of my truck for when I'm carrying the camper. One on my pack for extended hiking, and one for my daypack.

I found the 3 ft. cable. o.k. for my daypack. A 9ft on my extended is o.k. but had some extra cable. I just coiled it up and tied it off some where out of the way. The wire is a very small gauge,almost like striing candy.

I just fish it along the shoulder straps and found that on either pack it never gets caught on trees etc.

Geeks have a magnet base also but you can take out the magnets.

I'd give a try to one of thoses mentioned by Doug.

CaptCaper said:

I'd give a try to one of thoses mentioned by Doug.

Click to expand...

I have 2 from pc-mobile--a reradiating one (older model: GARATB (GARTB battery pack + GAS76B antenna, bnc connector) and the newer GAST3X (mcx connector). Both work fine.

I have also heard good things about the gps-geek antenna too.

Both have good reputations--search news://sci.geo.satellite-nav. There is also a review of the pc-mobile antenna at http://www.gpsinformation.org/. Maybe also the gps-geek one too?

Doug

DougPaul said:

Try http://www.pc-mobile.net/gpsant.htm. GAST3X (mcx connector). $27.90. I have one--works well, smaller than most. Magnetic base--works on car or in/on pack. (Just keep it away from your compass when taking bearings.)

Click to expand...

What GPS do you use. I notice that the compatability guide does not mention 60CS. It does say:

"and any other GPS with MCX external connector"

Unfortunately, although I think of myself as geeky, evidently I'm not geeky enough because I don't know if the 60CS has this connector or not.

Frosty said:

What GPS do you use. I notice that the compatability guide does not mention 60CS. It does say:

"and any other GPS with MCX external connector"

Unfortunately, although I think of myself as geeky, evidently I'm not geeky enough because I don't know if the 60CS has this connector or not.

Click to expand...

The specs on http://www.garmin.com will tell you.

The Garmin 60C, 60CS, 76C, 76CS, and others have MCX antenna connectors. (Some older models have BNC connectors.)

There is also the issue of voltage--some (generally older) amplified external antennas require 5V, the 60CS (and the others listed above) puts out 3.2V. (I just measured it.) The GAST3X antenna requries 2.5-12V.

The GAST3X antenna works with my 60CS.

Doug

Thanks, everyone, for the great feedback! I knew that if anyone would be able to help, it would be the people here on VFTT. I'll be filing this thread for future reference for sure.

I guess I'm still leaning toward the Garmin 60CS (unless someone comes on here in the next day or so & tells me how their Magellan outperforms it like crazy). It doesn't seem like there's anyone who has one who isn't more than satisified with their Garmin. I'll also be using it for fishing on the St Lawrence, and I think it'll be a fun thing for that, too. I currently have an old Magellan that's about 15 years old, which gets me within 500 feet of waypoints if I'm lucky. I realize that any new unit, either Magellan or Garmin, will be much more accurate than the oldies because of the WAAS, I guess.

BTW, has anyone heard of the new Bluetooth receivers, such as under the brand name of Holux, etc, who incorporate the new SiRFstarIII chip technology? DougPaul, anyone? They're supposed to be better than the rest when it comes to signal sensitivity as far as picking up and locking onto the satellites either in forests, buildings, or canyons. Wonder it that's really so.

Anyway I definitely need an upgrade. I'm tired of chicken......it's time for some lobster!!

DougPaul said:

...
The GAST3X antenna works with my 60CS.
...
Doug

Click to expand...

I've looked at the specs but have trouble figuring out exactly what you get as you move through these models of increasing price:

Garmin 60 ($180)
Garmin 60C ($450)
Garmin 60CS ($500)

What I do want/need is
same quality reception
same quality processing
reasonable # tracks, waypoints etc.
Good battery life

What I don't want/need is
color
built in maps


Are the 60c and 60CS just the same as the 60 but with color and maps? Or do they have better reception, etc?

Thanks

Papa Bear said:

I've looked at the specs but have trouble figuring out exactly what you get as you move through these models of increasing price:

Garmin 60 ($180)
Garmin 60C ($450)
Garmin 60CS ($500)

Click to expand...

I think that the main difference between the Garmin 60C and the 60CS is that you get an electric compass with the 60CS.

BTW, try this site for some good prices on GPS units:
http://www.getfeetwet.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=010-00322-30

For example, right now they're quoting $394 for a 60CS and you also get a $50 rebate if read it right. When you go to the site, you have to click on Checkout to get the price.

Papa Bear said:

I've looked at the specs but have trouble figuring out exactly what you get as you move through these models of increasing price:

Garmin 60 ($180)
Garmin 60C ($450)
Garmin 60CS ($500)

What I do want/need is
same quality reception
same quality processing
reasonable # tracks, waypoints etc.
Good battery life

What I don't want/need is
color
built in maps


Are the 60c and 60CS just the same as the 60 but with color and maps? Or do they have better reception, etc?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The difference between the 60C and 60CS is the CS has an electronic compass and a barometric altimeter. Otherwise identical. (IMO, the electronic compass is of very limited value, but the barometric altimeter is very useful.)

There are a number of differences between the 60 (b&W) and the 60C (color). Both are mapping units. (BTW the color displays on the Legend C, Vista C, 60C, and 76C are significant improvments over the B&W displays. Very worthwhile for a mapping unit IMO.)

Go to http://www.garmin.com/outdoor/products.html and click on "product comparison". This will enable you see the differnces fairly well.

quality:
Pretty much all modern consumer GPSes will do a decent job of estimating one's location under good conditions. Pretty much all recent consumer models from Garmin are similar in their ability to deal with degraded conditions. (The same can be said for Magellan. The biggest differnces between Garmin and Magellan is in presentation: how much averaging to use, when to give up on dead reckoning and report loss-of-signal to the user etc.)

color:
Makes a map display _much_ more readable than B&W. The Garmin displays are very readable in sunlight and have backlights. Propably not needed if one only wants text output.

maps:
There are 2 kinds of maps--basemaps and loadable maps. Basemaps are built-in, not changable by the user, and generally cover just major roads and features (eg a city, large lake or ocean). Loadable maps are downloaded from a computer and can be very detailed (eg 100K topo, 24K topo, detailed road). Some maps (both base and loadable) are routable: that is you can tell the GPS/software that you want to go to some point and the GPS/software will find a "best" route for you. It may also give you turn-by-turn directions.

IMO, the maps are very worthwhile, and if you have the maps, color is also worthwhile. An example: you have seen bobandgeri's (and others) GPS tracks to the summit region of Owl's head. These were plotted after bobandgeri got home. If I did that hike, I would have my color mapping GPS with the 24K topos loaded. I would see a similar plot, except it would be in real-time. I could see if I was on the south bump or the summit (according to the map) while I am still standing there. Much easier than trying to transfer locations between a paper map and a GPS. (I almost never explicitly deal with a set of numerical coordinates. I just point to a location and the computers take care of the rest.)

People are able to get effective use of a GPS with and without mapping. My vote (surprise!) is that the extra utility of a mapping unit is worth the extra cost, others can reasonably differ.

A Garmin basic (yellow) eTrex (SRP $106.24) will do a fine job of recording tracks, etc with minimal bells and whistles. You will likely want software to display tracks and manage waypoints and routes. A mapping uint will do more at a larger cost.

Doug

Papa Bear -

A very useful feature is to attach a short note or message to any waypoint you create from the keyboard of the gps unit.

If you see a great camping spot for future use, if you find a spring not on a map or some other water source, or anything remarkable....you can add a simple note without the burden of writing stuff down for later.

I own the Garmin 76s map. I bought this unit because of its lowered price (does not have a coloured screen) It has treated me very well in almost all conditions. This device holds a signal in most areas that other cheaper GPS units might fail. This was one of the few units I saw within the price range that offered many mapping and viewing options greared towards some that climbs mountains. The Altimeter and compass work great when there is no GPS signal and the error level with the altimeter has been no more than 20 feet.

You should buy the unit that has more tech that looks for its price.