At what point do you need plastic mountaineering boots ?

So it's mid July, 95 degrees and I'm thinking about my winter gear.
I hike more in the winter than the summer. Most is local AT in CT, some is ADK and I plan to start doing more in the Whites. So far I've been fine with snowshoes and 6 point crampons. I'm sticking with established trails in the winter. I have WIDE feet and I understand fitting plastics is difficult so I'm looking at some additional work to get them fitted properly. I'm also wondering if they can double as Randonee/Alpine Touring boots, as at least then I'd get more use from them.
So, at what point do I need them or can they be avoided ? thanks

You'll rarely if ever "need" plastic mountaineering boots in the Whites. People have been hiking in winter long before the existance of plastics, and people continue to do so.

I wanted plastic boots as soon as I started spending extended time above treeline wearing crampons and when I started doing winter overnights. I think those two criteria dictated when I took the plunge for plastics. Keep in mind that there are excellent double leather mountaineering boots today that achieve the same functionality, comfort, and insulation that plastics offered just a few years ago that are worth a look.

-dave-

I'm sure you will get many replies and just as many answers. I hiked in the Whites for several years in leather (winter) hiking boots with good success (make sure your crampons fit). It was only after I started winter camping that I got plastic boots. I know I've seen people sking in plastic boots, however, I don't have an answer to the sking question.

For dayhikes I've managed the last two winters in Salomon SM Lite boots. With a Wright Sock liner and Patagonia expedition weight outer sock I've only had one close call on cold toes when I let my concentration slip on one of the coldest days of winter 2003/4. Otherwise I've had no problems.

I have wide feet and bought a half size up from my normal boot size.

The usual disclaimer - YMMV Your Mileage May Vary.

For overnights it seems plastics offer a lot of benefits but I have no experience in that field.

Bob

I don't understand why they'd be more important for an overnight.
Because you're doing less walking and more standing around ?

Because your boots absorb mosture during the day and will freeze solid overnight. Plastic double boots allow you to wear your liners to bed, ensuring that you have warm, pliable boots in the morning.

Also, you may be out longer and in much colder temps on an overnight, possibly without much movement. The added safety factor of extra warm boots can save your toes and/or make the night a much more pleasant experience.

I can't speak to the skiing question directly, but in general, boots that are made for hiking aren't great for skiing, and vice versa. They can work with the right type of bindings, but you are talking about a setup that does everything at a minimum and nothing well. You probably would do better with Randonee boots used for hiking rather than hiking boots used for skiing.

-dave-

I also have wide feet and after trying both the LaSprtiva K4S and the Koflach Degre with no luck, I went back to leather boots. I bagged 18 peaks in the Whites this past winter and the only time my feet got cold was while changing boots at the trailhead. The only downside with them is they're not as comfortable for all-day crampon wearing as the plastics, but I don't wear the 10 points unless I need them.

Plastic boots with liners and pac boots are nice for overnights because you can wear the liners to bed, thus avoiding ice cold boots in the morning.

Note: The Rocky boots above have about the same temp rating as the koflachs. (about -50 to -65 deg. F.)

Edit: Temp. ratings from REI and Koflach
Koflach Degre -30F
Koflack Vertical -40F
Koflach Artis Expe -65F

David Metsky said:

You'll rarely if ever "need" plastic mountaineering boots in the Whites. People have been hiking in winter long before the existance of plastics, and people continue to do so.-

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Especially guys like me with size 17 feet, a size which the plastic boot manufacturers seem to think there isn't a huge market for.

Some loose thoughts...

1) I concur with Dave Metsky (big surprise) on the "need" issue. I think one thing that needs to be considered in increasing all of your gear's ability to function in deep cold. That is, all of you gear taken collectively dictates how cold you can go with comfort and margin for error, not just the boots. Once you know where that temperature limit is for you and your gear, you can operate within that safely, even if you don't have plastic boots. I simply won't go on overnights now if the forecast is for temp below -10f and I've been quite content to cause partner's upset at cancelling or delaying trips until the deep freeze lets up.

2) I can go to about -15f with a combination of VB socks, leather hiking boots and insulated gaiters. YMMV.

3) IMO, the big benifit of liners in boots is that you possibly eliminate the need for carrying camp booties at night if the liners are designed with laces. (Some modern warmer thermo-moldable liners don't have them.)

4) The big benifit of plastic shells is keeping wet snow out from melting through your boots.

5) The secret to keeping your boots dry on overnight trips (double or single boots) is to use VB socks during the day. I use single leather boots on winter climbing and skiing trips but don't get frozen boots generally.
Here are more thoughts on VBs:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt

6) For skiing, the primary trade-off you will need to wrestle with is the height of the cuff. For skiing on steep rugged terrain, most folks want as tall of a boot as they can get. But for walking on uneven ground, most folks prefer lower and softer cuffs. For AT type of gear, the progression goes something like this: plastic climbing boots, low cut AT boots (dynafit, scrapa f1), mid height AT boots (scarpa laser), full blown AT boots (Lowa struk????a, scarpa denali), alpine ski boots. There is a similar progression for nordic/telemark boots. I've not seen many folks using lace up climbing boots on AT skis in the Whites. Based on my experience with nordic and tele gear, I would think this has to do with the fact that approaches in the Whites are usually short (argues for higher boots) and the terrain is steep and tightly wooded (argues for more boot). The folks I've known who like climbing boots on AT skis have almost all been from places like the pacific northwest where it is possible to high mountain trips on glaciers while avoiding really steep and gnarly skiing. There, the skis are used as sliding snowshoes and more emphasis is placed on better climbing/hiking ability of the boot as opposed to its skiing capability. SUMMARY: Unless you have something specifically in mind, you might do better to keep your hiking and skiing boots separate.

Chip,

I have worn insulated leather boots in the Whites (day trips) in the winter for many years and had no issue with my feet being cold. I have found that my crampons (Grievel 10s) fit nice as well. However I would not want to spend the night with the leathers on. They will keep your feet warm as long as you are moving not standing or laying around at night.
You can buy some nice packable booties that work great to kick back at night and are not very expensive either. Mountain Hardwear, EMS and several other name brands come to mind.
Good luck and Happy Trails

I have worn double leather boots in winter for many years. (I take the felt inners in the sleeping bag to dry them out overnight.) They are probably a little heavier than some of the more modern plastic boots, but they are fine for the Whites. Can't recall ever having any serious cold feet problems. (My use has included camping and standing around on belay ledges for extended periods of time...)

In otherwords, you can get adequate boots for the winter Whites in leather or plastic.

Doug

I like them because they are so easy to take care of - basically nothing to do - no waterproofing, etc.. not that thats hard or anything, but...

Mine are without a doubt most comfortable of all my boots. (i have koflach degre's) I do understand that not all feel this way and it sounds like you may have some fitting issues.

but --

They are expensive and if your not out much on overnights, don't ice climb, you don't really "need them" as david pointed out. A good set of leathers would do you just fine on day trips on trails in the whites.

I would even say when very icy after a rain in the early spring or something - the 6 pointers would suit you fine on main trails. I never used 6 points - so don't know for sure.

Another vote for leather, I just think that they are more comfortable, and wearing crampons is not an issue with them. I have been on extended trips to glaciers in the Northern Cascades where crampons are in fact essential, and I've never had any problems.

Sticks said:

Chip,

I have worn insulated leather boots in the Whites (day trips) in the winter for many years and had no issue with my feet being cold. I have found that my crampons (Grievel 10s) fit nice as well. However I would not want to spend the night with the leathers on. They will keep your feet warm as long as you are moving not standing or laying around at night.
You can buy some nice packable booties that work great to kick back at night and are not very expensive either. Mountain Hardwear, EMS and several other name brands come to mind.
Good luck and Happy Trails

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Hi!
I wouldn't want to start a war or anything similar ;-), but I used to hike in the Adirondacks in winter with my summer hiking boots (north face boots with 0 insulation). With a liner sock and a big wool sock, my feet were warm and toasty if I kept moving. But breaks had to be fairly short (30 min max), otherwise my toes would start getting cold a bit. It's at that point that I thought to myself "So I just need to keep walking all the time and I'll be fine",...but what if there is an emergency, someone (myself or others) gets injured and we have to move very very slowly. That's when I decided to get better boots (I went with Koflach Verticals, used, awesome deal but could of went for insulated leather too).

After the accident on Mt Washington (where someone in our intro to mountaineering class got hit on the nugget by a football sized chunk of ice) and we had to carry her off the mountain, moving at an uber slow pace, I was particularly happy to have better boots. Also, my koflachs were awesome in the wet snow (this was in April).

Just a thought to consider...

Fish

I didn't realize plastics are primarily about warmth, I thought the determining factor "for need" would be more technical difficulty. I have Montrail I.C.E. boots for the winter and soled Down booties for the camp and tent. I'm just leaving myself with frozen boots in the morning, and I've managed to tough that out so far. I guess above tree line or much below 0 you wouldn't want to start your day with frozen boots, but I think the downside with fit and comfort would be greater for most of my hiking.

Chip said:

I'm just leaving myself with frozen boots in the morning, and I've managed to tough that out so far. I guess above tree line or much below 0 you wouldn't want to start your day with frozen boots, but I think the downside with fit and comfort would be greater for most of my hiking.

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This can be solved with VB socks.

dave.m said:

This can be solved with VB socks.

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AND good gaiters. VBL's alone won't do it.

>>I didn't realize plastics are primarily about warmth<<

This is purely opinion, but I'd argue that plastics are NOT primarily about warmth. They're about keeping the inner bootie dry. Plastic is waterproof, so there won't be an issue with "wetting" from the outside in.

There are double leather boots on the market - Sorel comes to mind - that are just as warm as Plastics. These things also use the shell/inner bootie concept. The theory is that the outer layer (leather) can wet through and freeze and the inner fleece bootie will stay dry and toasty.

With a double boot - whether plastic or leather, you can take the inner booties into your sleeping bag at night to keep them warm.


>> I thought the determining factor "for need" would be more technical difficulty. <<

Again, this is opinion, but I'd argue that leather, not plastic, is better for technically difficult climbs.

Plastic boots tend to have a Frankenstein like feel to them; they're clod stompers - there's very little sensitivity. Insulated leather provides better precision, but that comes at a price - leather tends to "wet out", etc.



>>I have Montrail I.C.E. boots for the winter and soled Down booties for the camp and tent. I'm just leaving myself with frozen boots in the morning <<

You might have a go at putting the Montrails in plastic bags (sealed) and take them into your sleeping bag at night to keep them warm. It might work for you; it might not. Some folks can deal with all manner of gear in their sleeping bags overnight. Some can't.

If you decide to splurge on plastics, try to catch the end-of-season rental sale at IME in North Conway.


>>Randonee...<<

Silvretta makes a randonee binding that works with mountaineering boots. But... don't forget that mountaineering boots were not designed to do what Randonee or Tele boots were designed to do.

I have T2 tele boots. I don't mind skinning in those things, but... would rather wear my mountaineering boots for hiking/climbing. The two products are made to be good at different things (hope that made sense).

I hate plastic boots...

I'm not saying this is for all, it's just for me. I rented some plastic boots. Hiked about 1 mile up Lowe's Path, turned around and went back to my car to change back into my leather boots. Yes the next morning my boots where frozen solid and uncomfortable. I just couldn't get over how uncomfortable plastic boots where.

I since have purchased insulated merrel boots (name slips my mind). They are rated to 40 below. I've used them 3 times and have yet to have a frozen boot problem or cold feet problem. This past winter I was out on the coldest day of winter and my feet where the only thing that wasn't cold. I also wear vapor barriers to avoid sweat getting into the boots and freezing.

If you wear plastic boots and can deal with the pain all the power to ya!

While I have never worn plastic boots, I have done a lot of winter activities. I've never had a problem with my boots freezing, as I change my socks once during the day, and the 800 gram Gore-Tex seems to do it's job well. The crampons fit snugly, and they're as comfortable as summer hiking boots, just heavier. Even the -35°F 3-day camping trip to Canada last winter was great in the leathers, my feet never got cold at all, despite standing around for long periods of time watching others.

That being said, The leathers aren't the greatest for vertical ice climbing, the boots will flex too much not allowing me a great bite, so I'm going to spring for some plastics this winter. For non-vertical and hiking though, I love them.