$25,000 fine assessed for teen hiker

[bikehikeskifish]

Maddy - the article you quoted says he was 18, not 16, and that he was climbing Mt. Washington, not doing a Presidential Traverse.

Tim

 

[Maddy]

Maddy - the article you quoted says he was 18, not 16, and that he was climbing Mt. Washington, not doing a Presidential Traverse.

Tim

Thanks Tim... but that does not change my decision to support F&G's conclusion.
I had noticed the discrepancy and I believe he was 17.

There is so much concern about F&G's decisions to charge only certain individuals, I wonder if this problem will be resolved by charging everyone and eliminating having to prove if someone if "negligent". It seems like this might be the next logical step.

 

[Daniel Eagan]

Nothing like throwing gasoline on dying embers:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/11/21/20091121rescue1121.html

Apparently in AZ the rescue is free but the ride back isn't.

 

[Mike P.]

I've got to get a job for the press, only have to come close to the facts.

Since it's NH, the AZ paper gave only one line on the Mason incident. Hard to give the story it's proper due & even harder to tell if he was unaccounted for four days or spained his ankle at the Crystal Cascade. Comments in the paper not much different than what you see in the local online papers here, except stupid is heading out with one bottle of water in July.

(Okay Man-o-war, just 1000 more lashes )

 

[erugs]

There was a story specifically about this rescue in the recent issue of National Geographic Adventure. Laurence Gonzales wrote in favor of not charging for this kind of rescue. I have only had time to skim it but his points seemed valid.

http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/laurence_gonzales/

 

[dug]

There was a story specifically about this rescue in the recent issue of National Geographic Adventure. Laurence Gonzales wrote in favor of not charging for this kind of rescue. I have only had time to skim it but his points seemed valid.

http://ngadventure.typepad.com/blog/laurence_gonzales/

He nailed it.

 

[Mike P.]

While I think a grand or two should be plently, I can't say the story "nailed it"

Going up Tucks' in April when you are likely to see a carnival of people is not the same as a Presi-traverse & that's what I think of when the author is telling us his personal experience. (Personally, you couldn't pay me to hike up Tucks during the height of the ski season)

If I recall correctly, Scott wan't doing a traverse but a loop, heading up Washington from PNVC, hitting the North peaks & then descending the AT back to PNVC. In April, that route is not that popular, IMO. (I descended from Madison Hut to PNVC during the July 4th weekend many years ago & below the Scout Trail saw very few, if any - it was 1995 - people north of the auto road.

The standard Presi-Traverse is done from Appalachia to C-Notch & is done more often in late May through July although of course it's done in all 12 months. (I seem to recall a couple of kids about the same age - maybe college age - with delusions of climbing Madison Gulf & staying in Madison Hut a few April's ago & people gave it to them for their route choice & of course the hut being closed)

I've read that Scott's ankle was twisted & I've read it was sprained, two very different injuries. With snowshoes & crampons during a cold April, his exit plan wasn't bad. That was not the weather that day, with the temps of that weekend, it should have been expected that streams would be very high, similar to conditions of a day of heavy rain.

Penalizing someome who leaves their plans with family in case they are overdue seems silly, isn't that part of hiking safely???????

Can anyone enlighten me on how much hiking (especially solo hiking) an Eagle Scout needs to do before everyone calls him experienced? (I'm being honest here) My son is just starting Cub Scouts & the pack have a ceremony for 50 miles. Now I know that an Eagle Scout is older & 50 is an achievement for an 8 - 10 year old but what is experienced.

While conditions were very different, IMO, there seems to be similarities in the decisions to press on after an injury & in choosing detours in both the Mason & Dahl rescues. An impressive list of places you've been isn't enough, especially if you aren't planner & leading, I'd rather see a list of places you failed to get to & here why. IMO, you learn more in those situations. (someone please give CPR to "Old Paint", the whip's not broken yet)

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Can anyone enlighten me on how much hiking (especially solo hiking) an Eagle Scout needs to do before everyone calls him experienced? (I'm being honest here) My son is just starting Cub Scouts & the pack have a ceremony for 50 miles. Now I know that an Eagle Scout is older & 50 is an achievement for an 8 - 10 year old but what is experienced.

50 miles of what? 10 lengths of the Wilderness Trail is 50 miles but it is far different than a winter Zealand Bonds traverse + a full Pressie.

I'm sure my 7 and 9 year olds have 50 miles each under their belts. 3 4000-footers (Jackson, Tecumseh, Moosilauke = ~20 miles) plus dozens of smaller 1-3 mile trips (Pack Monadnock, Monadnock, Cardigan, Bald Mountain, etc.) They are experienced by some definition - they can ID many plants and wildflowers, and a handful of surrounding peaks, but they aren't experienced. I don't necessarily trust them to cross a stream without guidance.

The answer to your question is "It's all relative."

Tim

 

[DrJJFate]

Another problem I have is putting all my trust into a recommendation given me by the AMC. I think a lot of them are terrific advisors, but one of them highly recommended the Huntington Ravine as an excellent hiking trail to the summit to some friends of mine. She and her husband climbed the peak once a year in August. My friend ended up hysterical, clinging to rocks, and refusing to move up or down. Her husband dealt with the situation but it was not pretty. She did write a letter of complain after she survived her traumatic experience.

Why would anyone put all of their trust into a recommendation, even if given by someone affiliated with the AMC? This "adviser" was not leading a trip. He/She was not accompanying your friends on their hike. It was a recommendation with no knowledge of your friends' experience, preparedness, comfort or fears.

Your friend would know his wife far better than this agent of the AMC. Why didn't he recognize her signs of discomfort and fear earlier in their journey [and turn back]? Did he consult a guidebook? The first line for the Huntington Ravine Trail in the WMG states: "Caution: This is the most difficult regular hiking trail in the White Mtns."

At what point does the responsibility shift? Should this adviser have conducted a gear check to make sure that your friends were carrying jackets and flashlights? And demonstrate that they are operational?

Personal responsibility. Once you step out onto the trail, it's up to you.

 

[Mike P.]

Mike...you should be an Eagle Scout leader. With your knowledge and background you would be a great educator. I think too often parents just don't have the knowledge base and experience to ask their kids specifics about their training and to question them about their knowledge of routes and conditions.

You bring up an excellent point about "experience"!

Thanks for the compliment, at this point I'm happy just being one of many parents with the Cub Scouts. As they grow, so will I, hopefully

as bikehikeskifish said, it's all relative, many of us would be in deep_ _ _ _ doing a ski to Denali trip..... (_ _ _ _ likely the Griz variety )

 

[DrJJFate]

I don't think I mentioned that I thought the AMC person should have done a gear check. To clarify... my post was about being aware that you cannot believe everything you are told, even by someone who you believe has a decent knowledge of an area where they are employed.

Indeed, you did not mention this. I did. There are many variables and questions any AMC info person would have to ask everyone in order to provide a most accurate recommendation.

I don't think that most people on this board would recommend the Huntington Ravine trail to anyone without first inquiring into their experience and comfort level with heights and open spaces.

This was not a post to bad mouth the AMC. I was just making the point that perhaps Scott received incomplete info about his prospective plans and that you cannot believe everything you are told as gospel truth.

Never took your post(s) as a knock on the AMC. As I mention above, experience and comfort are two of many questions this adviser would need to ask (each person).

Kudos to your friend for his prescience with regards to his wife's apprehension.

 

[Maddy]

DrJJFate;301342]
There are many variables and questions any AMC info person would have to ask everyone in order to provide a most accurate recommendation.

Kudos to your friend for his prescience with regards to his wife's apprehension.

Why didn't he recognize her signs of discomfort and fear earlier in their journey [and turn back]?

I can handle big words.
I know that you think my friend's husband did not have the "foresight" (prescience) to predict what his wife's reaction would be, and that this entire episode could have been avoided. You made that very clear in your last post. I might point out that he is a police chief and first responder. Maybe his wife was in good hands after all.
Why the kudos now??? Has something changed?


My original post and my responses to JJ FATE have been deleted. I should not have used what happened with my friends as an example to explain why Scott may not have received adequate info regarding trail conditions prior to his hike.
I have now been successfully enlightened to the fact that the AMC cannot possibly give accurate info because they do not have time to gather all the data they would need. To do this for each individual hiker would be way above and beyond their scope of practice. I erroneously thought a few simple questions might suffice. Gone are the days when one could simply say "If you are afraid of heights and open spaces, HR might not be route for you". Or "It's spring and you could encounter impassable river crossings, etc. etc. etc. Do you have a plan for an escape route?"
I spent a considerable amount of time on these posts and it is clear to me now that I should not have.
"It's just not worth it"

I learned the "it's just not worth it lesson" recently from another hiker who set a great example for me on another board. Thanks. Didn't think I would need it so soon.

 

[Arthur Dent]

About a week ago I heard from a reliable source that the case has been settled out of court but I'm not sure if any of the parties involved are commenting on the outcome, or the specific amount of money I heard had to be paid to NH to help defray the cost of the rescue effort.

 

[DrJJFate]

I can handle big words.
I know that you think my friend's husband did not have the "foresight" (prescience) to predict what his wife's reaction would be, and that this entire episode could have been avoided.

Maddy, I was unclear in what I was trying to communicate. I was not trying to be sarcastic and meant no insult to you or your friends. My apologies.

I was referring to his foresight in not continuing on after his wife's obvious discomfort with the terrain and its evirons. Many incidents we read about on VFTT, in Appalachia, or hear in SAR reports indicate that a member of a group was having trouble, but they continue onward.

"It's just not worth it"

I agree completely. Your friend realized that reaching the summit was far less important than his wife's safety and peace of mind.

 

[dug]

So, if you are unfamiliar with an area, one could go to resources to try to get familiar with that area. If I were in an area where there are "stewards of the mountains", and happen to be sitting in their main hub, I would think this would be the most reliable source of information, no? Who else would have better information about the area than the folks at Pinkham Notch? The only other way to get better information would be first hand...do it yourself.

I've mentioned it before, but I got caught on the wrong side of the flooded Peabody River. I walked in skipping across rocks on a Friday, and waded across a raging river up to my hips on a Saturday.

 

[Maddy]

If I were in an area where there are "stewards of the mountains", and happen to be sitting in their main hub, I would think this would be the most reliable source of information, no? Who else would have better information about the area than the folks at Pinkham Notch?

I thought so to.

I've mentioned it before, but I got caught on the wrong side of the flooded Peabody River. I walked in skipping across rocks on a Friday, and waded across a raging river up to my hips on a Saturday.

Sure glad you made it out OK. That had to be a wee bit scary!

 

[NorthShore]

Can anyone enlighten me on how much hiking (especially solo hiking) an Eagle Scout needs to do before everyone calls him experienced? (I'm being honest here) My son is just starting Cub Scouts & the pack have a ceremony for 50 miles. Now I know that an Eagle Scout is older & 50 is an achievement for an 8 - 10 year old but what is experienced.

You can't judge his hiking experience just by the fact he has earned Eagle Scout rank since there is not a set minimum that each scout must achieve to earn the rank.

There are a total of 12 merit badges that are required for the Eagle rank. 10 are non-negotiable, and the other two must be one of the scout's choosing from each of the following two groups:

• Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving
• Cycling OR Hiking OR Swimming

In my experience (other troops may differ) most scouts wind up with the Swimming merit badge at an early age as the swimming skills are required before they can participate in a number of other water related activities (often at summer camp). Therefore, most scouts pursuing a hiking merit badge don't specifically need it for their Eagle requirement.

There are a number of requirements for the hiking merit badge involving safety and preparation, in addition to the physical requirements which include 5 ten mile hikes and 1 twenty mile hike. A good summary of the requirements is here:

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Hiking

For other ranks there is a hiking requirement that scouts plan and take a 5 mile hike...but nothing requiring mileage beyond that. An Eagle scout may be a very experienced hiker, but it isn't a requirement.

 

[Maddy]

DrJJFate;301381]
Originally Posted by Maddy View Post
"It's just not worth it"
I agree completely. Your friend realized that reaching the summit was far less important than his wife's safety and peace of mind.

"It's just not worth it" referred to all the effort I put into my posts which obviously contributed nothing substantive to the discussion so I chose to delete them.
I was not referring to the outcome of what happened when my two "tourist" friends followed the recommendation given them by the AMC person, to hike the "trail de jour", HR, to the summit. They were naive to listen, I was naive to write about it, and Scott was naive in his own way to.
We all learned a lesson.

I related this only in relation to what Scott might or might not have been told.

I hope if the case did settle out of court things worked out OK for him and his family. Hopefully he will have many more safe and happy hiking experiences.

For myself, I will continue to ask the AMC for their input when I have specific questions about trails. I have received only one bad recommendation in about 30 yrs so I have no cause for complaint. The "stewards of the mountains" are doing a fine job. Unfortunately there will always be someone that falls through the cracks.
I do own the guide book.

 

[DrJJFate]

"It's just not worth it" referred to all the effort I put into my posts which obviously contributed nothing substantive to the discussion so I chose to delete them.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I may not always be clear on context. But, I'm sure that many others reading your posts are appreciative of the thoughts and experiences you share. I certainly am.

 

[RoySwkr]

You can't judge his hiking experience just by the fact he has earned Eagle Scout rank since there is not a set minimum that each scout must achieve to earn the rank.

I agree. While I respect anyone who has managed to make Eagle Scout, it says nothing about your hiking abilities in the backcountry. I believe that you can get the hiking merit badge by using a wheelchair on an accessible trail.

This guy seems to have had the physical capability to have completed his proposed hike under good conditions, what he seems to have lacked is the judgment to know that the Great Gulf would come with deep snow and high water. He apparently made no effort to make himself visible to searchers such as a smoky fire, perhaps thinking he was OK and his frantic mother wouldn't have initiated a search. (Well, teenagers are not noted for expert judgment.)

And nobody has ever answered my question about whether somebody from the AMC suggested Six Husbands Trail, and if they did why they didn't speak up and have somebody check that and other trails for fresh footprints on the first day of the search.