4 Season List (Gridiot) Question

[bignslow]

I'm foolishly working on my 46x4 however, 2 weekends from now I'm running into a bit of a conundrum as the equinox is on Saturday (specifically it is at ~10:40 AM). I know the W48 rules specifically state that a hike must begin no earlier than the precise winter solstice and end no later than the equinox (compared to the simpler W46 rules of giving a fixed date range).

What do other 4 season list aspirants and finishers do?

EDIT: I forgot to include an "others" clause in the poll (can't seem to edit it either). If you have any other suggestions, please comment below.

EDIT: But I can edit the poll, and I have added the Other choice for you... Tim

 

[Tom Rankin]

I'm foolishly working on my 46x4 however, 2 weekends from now I'm running into a bit of a conundrum as the equinox is on Saturday (specifically it is at ~10:40 AM). I know the W48 rules specifically state that a hike must begin no earlier than the precise winter solstice and end no later than the equinox (compared to the simpler W46 rules of giving a fixed date range).

What do other 4 season list aspirants and finishers do?

EDIT: I forgot to include an "others" clause in the poll (can't seem to edit it either). If you have any other suggestions, please comment below.

There is no governing body, so govern yourself. But it was me, (and I am working on the Cat35 x 4), I would apply the Winter rule philosophy, and only count it if it was entirely inside a given season.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I would go with whichever rules apply for the standard winter/non-winter patches. For the Whites, that would be entirely within the day and time of the equinox/solstice. The ADKs use just the date, don't they?

(I edited your poll to include Other, btw)

Tim

 

[vegematic]

There is no governing body, so govern yourself. But it was me, (and I am working on the Cat35 x 4), I would apply the Winter rule philosophy, and only count it if it was entirely inside a given season.

This is my reasoning as well. I would stay consistent with the rules for the winter list.

 

[sdways01]

I went with when you step on the summit, that is the season. If you were doing a multi-day hike (pemi, presi) where the season changed in the middle, how would you count any of them?

 

[bignslow]

I would go with whichever rules apply for the standard winter/non-winter patches. For the Whites, that would be entirely within the day and time of the equinox/solstice. The ADKs use just the date, don't they?

(I edited your poll to include Other, btw)

Tim

Thanks for the fix!

If I follow the ADK rules, I'd call the seasons this:
Winter 12/21 - 3/21 (Per their rules)
Spring 3/22 - 6/21 (made up by me)
Summer 6/22 - 9/21 (made up by me)
Fall 9/22 - 12/20 (made up by me)

That would put my hike comfortably into Fall. The majority of voters have sided with the AMC rules which requires completion within 1 season. Though we do have a handful of "other"s who haven't shared their systems.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

The majority of voters have sided with the AMC rules which requires completion within 1 season. Though we do have a handful of "other"s who haven't shared their systems.

One season is the strictest interpretation for sure. The question is when does a season start/end, for which I would use the local club's rules, i.e., the ADK-46rs winter rules, rather than the AMC FTFC's rules.

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

My personal opinion is that to be consistent with the Underhill rules, any hike must be complete to within the specified season, month, day, whatever you are specifying - hence a hike might not count for any [whatever]

However Eric Savage perhaps dreading mathematical discontinuities once said it should count for the easier season, which may work for seasons but is April easier than March for example?

HE apparently uses the "foot on summit" rule, for Baxter in April anyhow

 

[Willie]

A few years ago, I asked a similar question on another board. Check here. At post #12, I summarised the responses, which goes something like this:

1) The “traditional season” rule: Use the calendar for the beginning and end of each season.

2) The “anal traditional season” rule: Follow the rules of the AMC Four Thousand Footer Club

3) The “Random season” rule:

Winter = 12/21-3/21 (91 days, or 92 on leap years)
Spring = 3/22-6/20 (91 days)
Summer = 6/21-9/20 (92 days)
Fall = 9/21-12/20 (91 days)

4) The "no rules” rule: Since the 46ers have NO rules for the 4-seasons, make your own. If anyone objects, ask them to show you the rules.

5) The "21 is wild" rule: Climbs on 3/21, 6/21, 9/21 and 12/21 may count for the season on either side of that date.

 

[bignslow]

A few years ago, I asked a similar question on another board. Check here. At post #12, I summarised the responses, which goes something like this:

1) The “traditional season” rule: Use the calendar for the beginning and end of each season.

2) The “anal traditional season” rule: Follow the rules of the AMC Four Thousand Footer Club

3) The “Random season” rule:

Winter = 12/21-3/21 (91 days, or 92 on leap years)
Spring = 3/22-6/20 (91 days)
Summer = 6/21-9/20 (92 days)
Fall = 9/21-12/20 (91 days)

4) The "no rules” rule: Since the 46ers have NO rules for the 4-seasons, make your own. If anyone objects, ask them to show you the rules.

5) The "21 is wild" rule: Climbs on 3/21, 6/21, 9/21 and 12/21 may count for the season on either side of that date.

Thanks for the reply (I tried to click the "thanks" button, and then realized I was on the wrong forum).

I'll probably stick with the "Random Season" rule (or the table I have above) for the 46 hikes, and since I have next to zero intention of a 4x115, I don't really have to worry about the AMC rules as much.

A big reason this is a challenge for me, is because my stat tracking "software" only approximates the seasons (along the lines of the random season rules) and that tells me how far along I am for the 4 season. This is the first time I'm doing a hike that is too close to the boundary.

 

[Bhoody]

Just take the 21st as a rest day for each season!

 

[akafuzzjones]

Have been working on the 115 X 4 (although I keep doing the ADKs in the summer so there is a serious flaw in my plan) and I use the the rule that the foot has to be back at the trailhead before the season "changes" in order for it to count in that season.

Here is the date and time information that I use:

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html

 

[Stan]

I voted "other". Since there are no governing rules for the 4 season grid, let your conscience be your guide ... just don't count one hike for both seasons. Hey, it is a heck of an accomplishment and worthy of bragging rights. I wouldn't expect any barroom brawls over the issue but a lively discussion could require the mediation of the nearest beertender.

 

[B the Hiker]

I'm a social scientist, and there's something compelling me to try get beyond my gut reaction on this issue and think more systematically.

My first urge to remind myself out loud that mountains aren't something simply to be "counted." We hike we enjoy it. I don't hike because I'm a peakbagger; I bag peaks because I love hiking. I guess that's why there's something about "does it count" that makes me squirm. But whatever.

The first question is whether one can climb a mountain and not have it "count." There's counter-intuitive here, yes? You hike up Mt. Washington on Dec 31, and somehow remain alive to watch the sunrise and hike down on Jan 1. Can that really not "count" in either year? The gut reaction is to say "yes, it counts for neither" and yet something just does not seem quite right about that. Why doesn't that seem right? The answer is that you climbed the mountain, and yet that trip does not seem to "exist."

Let's keep pushing here. Scenario B: Each month you hike up the same mountain on the last day of that month, and hike down on the first day of the next month. You've been up that mountain twelve times, and yet on a list you've been up it never. (And don't even go with the linking separate hikes bit!)

In the sociolegal world we talk of the "spirit of the law" and the "letter of the law." The letter of the law here is pretty clear. Autumn starts at 10:whatever on Sept XX, and you must start the hike and finish it after that minute but before the first minute of winter.

If that's true, you can hike Scenario B and never be up the mountain on the list.

So the question then is, what is the spirit of the law? Reasonable people can disagree, but my head tells me that if you have been up and down a mountain, that trip should exist--because if nothing else, the spirit of the law should be the goal of getting people off their couches and into the mountains. But again, reasonable people can disagree.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.


Brian

 

[DSettahr]

I voted for "precise moment you step on the summit" because that's the standard I would hold myself to. But a hike can't count twice- i.e., I can't camp at the base of the mountain, summit on the last day of Summer, then re-summit on the first day of fall, and have it count for each season- it's got to be a separate trip entirely.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

...I can't camp at the base of the mountain, summit on the last day of Summer, then re-summit on the first day of fall, and have it count for each season- it's got to be a separate trip entirely.

Does base = trailhead? If so, then the AMC, and by extension, the Grid (12x48 and 366) rules allow you to count it twice if you return to the trailhead. I recall Bruce Pfendler doing Jackson and Tom on 2/29/12 as he is working on simultaneous 366 grids. Same for the Trailwrights--I can count one of Tom, Field, Willey (one trip) from 2/29/12 and Tecumseh, also on 2/29/12, because they were separate trips.

Or are you adopting a stricter personal standard?

Tim

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

My impression is that goal orientated hikers and backpackers prefer a clear set of rules governing their pursuits.

So one possible answer is to clarify the definations.

1. A trip to a summit starts and ends at a trail head.
2. The season starts and ends at specific times on specific dates.
3. In order for a trip to count for the seasonal list, the start and end times of the trip must lie within the start and end times of the associated season.

I prefer valley trails to peaks. But I do have a list I am pursuing: to follow every stream in a particular drainage to its head waters. It is awesome fun, at each trickle of water I get to decide if its a stream, at the end of each adventure I get to decide if I have reached the headwater. I am not leaving canisters.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Brian

Brian - The reasons I hike year after year has little to do with lists. I do enjoy reaching goals as part of my overall journey thru life, and most often when hiking that is a peak, or series of peaks. Occasionally it will be a specific point - not a peak - and that's fine, so long as it meets the other 'needs' I have internally which brings me the joy I find in hiking. Again - it's reaching whatever goal(s), within reason, which have been established for the day - which will cause me to feel whether or not I got from the day what I'd hoped for at the outset.

Having said that - have I engaged in the game of peakbagging along the way? Certainly, and will probably do it again, if only to "do" some list again. Once I establish the goal of completing a list I endeavor to follow whatever rules the creators of that list established. If I view the rules as being too silly, legalistic, dangerous, etc, I choose not to play. Otherwise, I do my best to follow the rules because that's part of the joy of any game. To me, it's not whether a peak "counts" or not. It's whether or not it was hiked according to the rules of the game. I may not get to 'count' a peak on a given day, but that doesn't mean I didn't get from the hike all the things that I love. It just means that hike won't 'count' towards meeting the rules of the game.

As is often said - it's not the destination. It's the journey.

 

[RoySwkr]

The first question is whether one can climb a mountain and not have it "count."
...
The letter of the law here is pretty clear. Autumn starts at 10:whatever on Sept XX, and you must start the hike and finish it after that minute but before the first minute of winter.

If that's true, you can hike Scenario B and never be up the mountain on the list.

I'm sure ES had some similar feelings when he thought it should count for the easier season.

To go to an entirely different subject, apparently the USCensus had some issues with people checking multiple races on their forms when it was expected that only one would be input. Future forms will probably either allow multiple checks or else have a multiracial category.

To get back to peakbagging, apparently you expect that there is a spreadsheet cell for ascents in each season and a cell for total ascents which should be the sum of those. What is wrong with a cell for "multi-season ascents" to handle such trips and make the total correct? You could even invent a game where each peak must be climbed spanning each season break, and then you could argue what % of time/distance needs to be in each season for a true multi-season ascent

A similar issue arises in my quest for a prominent peak every day. Older maps showed the summit of Mt Huntington near Hancock Notch so I climbed it twice from that side, while newer maps showed the S summit of equal height so I've climbed that three times from near Kancamagus Pass. But I've never been to both summits the same day, so I can't claim any of the 5 days for a prominent peak ascent not being sure which is higher.

 

[DSettahr]

Does base = trailhead? If so, then the AMC, and by extension, the Grid (12x48 and 366) rules allow you to count it twice if you return to the trailhead. I recall Bruce Pfendler doing Jackson and Tom on 2/29/12 as he is working on simultaneous 366 grids. Same for the Trailwrights--I can count one of Tom, Field, Willey (one trip) from 2/29/12 and Tecumseh, also on 2/29/12, because they were separate trips.

Or are you adopting a stricter personal standard?

Tim

No, I meant camp somewhere between the trailhead and the summit. A mountain can't count twice unless I've returned to a trailhead in between both summits. This is my own personal standard, not any "official" one that I'm aware of.