ADK Heart Lake Proposal - Pro or Con?

[Tom Rankin]

Are you in favor of the proposed changes to the ADK property near Heart Lake?

For reference:

Original thread

ADK Web Page with more information

ADK High Peaks Thread

 

[Little Rickie]

Thanks for setting up the poll.

Anyone want to guess how I voted?

 

[skiguy]

I voted sort of. There is room for some improvement on the ADK property but IMO it should be done to already existing structures. The High Peaks Visitor's center should be renovated rather than a whole new one being built. Education should be increased but not by having to build a new building but rather through an increase in education criculum and public awareness. As mentioned in the other thread "Big Changes coming to the Loj and Loj Road" I would be more inclined as a ADK member to spend less and preserve the experience that is already present than to be fiscally irresponsible in an age of decreased visitor participation and a declining economy.

 

[Gandalf]

I am squarely against the Heart Lake Master Plan based on everything I have heard so far, though if stronger arguments are advanced than those I have encountered in Adirondac magazine or elsewhere I suppose I could reconsider. As skiguy has mentioned above and he and others have mentioned elsewhere, problems exist but an overhaul of these proportions seems excessive, if not downright irresponsible.

What I find particularly irksome about this Plan is the fait accompli manner in which it has been presented. It's all very well and good if the information has previously existed buried in footnotes or at the fringes of obscure websites, but prior to its implementation I would have liked to have seen a more open, well-advertised process whereby ADK Club members had votes and/or a forum for balanced discussion.

 

[Rick]

Going back to 95-2001, I sat on the BOD under both Chuck and Terry. I was for the HLMP then, but I had concerns in several areas. I don't think anyone can disagree entirely that the Loj is outdated and needs quite a bit of work to bring it up to expectations for the cost to the consumer. I also firmly believe that the HPIC could benefit from a different physical setting and better day use accomodations.
Yeah, it tugs at my heart, as the ADK I knew for almost 20 years would change dramatically, but then common sense prevails. Do I really use that trail-head - When at all possible, No. (My personal thought). Do we need a grander entrance into the park - probably not, but a better, more accommodating one, yes. One that is a bit more environmental friendly - Yes.

I am not for enlarging the campgrounds unless there is a design to bring it up to DEC standards - better park road, better facilities and enough to serve everyone when CG is at capacity.

I do recall there were issues back then that perhaps the Some ADK Presidents (and I give them credit for doing a difficult job) where tagged with the label of being "AMC Wannabes" and that there was a move underfoot to create a megalopolis of a club like the AMC rather than the quaint cozy group that the ADK was/is - I seem to recall some longtime members feeling resentment, as well as some chapters feeling like the ADK Main Chapter was taking away their autonomy and their funds. It also seemed about this time period, there was a much more intent focus on making money and mass mailings targeting new members that had money (IIRC) and bring them into the club.
I do agree though that to serve the next 100 years, there needs to be a better grounds design, better accommodations, better facilities and better parking - All with an enviro-friendly design.

P.S. I was never really fond of the office in albany that we opened for Neil's advocacy and lobbying purposes. It also seemed they were tackling areas outside of the Blue Line, such as Alleghany and a few other areas (Though I don't remember at this time. Again, more grand in scope, perhaps designed to compete with AMC for dollars, or perhaps not, but either way, a departure from the ADK that many knew.

 

[Rick]

....As mentioned in the other thread "Big Changes coming to the Loj and Loj Road" I would be more inclined as a ADK member to spend less and preserve the experience that is already present than to be fiscally irresponsible in an age of decreased visitor participation and a declining economy.

Skiguy, I understand those concerns, and I think the HPI and and the old and new Loj's have served admirably...... but then I wonder "What will the next 100 years bring" and I think that the long term visions are what we really need to be prepared for. I also wouldn't mind turning the current Loj into a "hike into" museum of Adirondack culture and history.

 

[ADKdremn]

I don't necesarrily want to see any changes. I primarily use the Loj campground to get my wife and kids into the woods. Yes, I'd rather by somewhere out in the backcountry, but my wife isn't in to that. The campground at the Loj is the only one I've found that has me feeling like I'm right in the heart of the High Peaks.
Yes, the building, the bathrooms, the road in are all outdated, but to me, that rustic feeling all adds to the charm of the place. It wouldn't be the same if I didn't come back from the showers complaining about the variations in water temp, the lack of pressure, etc.
I'd rather see improvements made to the existing building without adding some new, grandiose building welcoming everyone.

 

[skiguy]

Skiguy, I understand those concerns, and I think the HPI and and the old and new Loj's have served admirably...... but then I wonder "What will the next 100 years bring" and I think that the long term visions are what we really need to be prepared for. I also wouldn't mind turning the current Loj into a "hike into" museum of Adirondack culture and history.

I can see your side of wanting to prepare for the future and I also agree some steps should be made in that direction. As mentioned in the other thread by me already on this issue I would again advocate being more fiscally responsible and phase these changes in over a longer time span. In that phasic approach it would also be fiscally and environmentally responsible to evaluate each phase's completion whether that phase had the desired effect before moving onto the next phase. To prepare for the next 100 years by implementing a plan over the next seven years that has been formulated over the last fifteen is again irresponsible. I hope that some of the advocates of this project have spent time in and around the AMC as an example and realize just the potential rise in impact that this project will cause. Build it and they will come. Except the ones that will be doing the coming will not be the same clientel. Does the whole wheel need to be rebuilt from the hub on up or maybe just a few of the spokes. If needed the hub can be replaced later after rolling the wheel on the new spokes for awhile. Where is the money coming from for this anyhow? Again membership dues and visatation is down. So let's spend more and build it up and then maybe in 100 years we will be out of the hole.

 

[TCD]

I've now had a chance to read much of the detail and the rationales, and I voted "largely against."

There are clearly some positives in the plan, but I think the general strategic direction is not what I want from my Club. I think the Club needs to redo strategic planning. I know a lot of work and thinking was done, but I have seen these exercises go awry too many times in business to trust their outcomes. A few lessons I have learned:

>Spend a lot of time on the Vision and Mission. It drives the rest of the process.

>Always go back to that source. Our driving principles are Conservation, Education, Recreation. Does this plan really represent that? Elements do, but the overall direction includes a lot of tourism and budgetary concerns. (I understand that there is reality, and that an organization must seek to survive, but then that should be reflected all the way back to the Vision.)

>Use professional outside Facilitation.

>Include stakeholder representatives, and also non stakeholder reps who are smart, creative, or interested, to open and balance the process.

>Vet the output in an open forum (that's happening now, but it's late in the process).

I like and support our current principles. I'd like to see less money spent on lodging, and more on hiker education and trail improvement. Maybe skip a few hotel rooms, and spend the money hiring more summit stewards and trailhead / campground stewards. Maybe skip a few more hotel rooms, and spend the money re reouting the Lake Arnold pass trail that is underwater most of the time.

TCD

 

[skiguy]

Where is the money coming from for this anyhow?

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[rdl]

Where is the money coming from ? Look in the same issue of Adirondac that started these threads and you'll see an announcement of a new Development Associate being hired by ADK. Corporate Donations and other fundraising is the answer.

I don't have the facts to back this up, and I'm too lazy to find the issue of Adirondac that has the ADK annual report in, but main club reports that I've heard at our local chapter meetings seem to indicate that the ADK North Country operations(Loj, JBL) barely break even and may even lose money. If that is the case, and faced with significant repairs, that would seem to leave ADK two options for the North Country operations: either spend some money to make money(expand) or close. Food for thought...

 

[ken]

Where is the money coming from ?

from those overpriced parking fees that they charge there?

 

[Raymond]

Is the Loj in any worse shape than the average AMC hut? I haven’t stayed there since 2002, but I haven’t spent the night in a hut since 1984. The Loj seemed nicer to me than Greenleaf hut did; cheaper, too.

It doesn’t make sense to me, either, to chop down a bunch of trees to make a new parking lot just so they can say they’re letting the existing one ‘‘revert to nature.’’ (Isn’t the current one pretty sandy, anyway?) Are they afraid too many people are getting in via South Meadow Road, they’re losing parking fees? There never seems to be anyone manning the toll booth anyway.

If they expect everyone to pass through a new visitors’ center before beginning a hike, will it be open at five a.m. for those early starts many hikes require? And by the way, with all the people working on the 46er list, plus all the ones who have finished the list in recent years, how could the total number of visitors possibly have dropped by a third? Heck, 1998 (the year cited in the article as having had 150,000 visitors, while 2006 had 100,000) is the year I caught the peakbagging bug myself, and I’ve made 20 trips to the Adirondacks since that August 1998 trip, usually accompanied by either my ladyfriend, Susan, or son, Cameron, or most commonly, both. And there used to be even more people than are there nowadays filling up the parking lots??

I’m glad Cam is down to his last seven High Peaks to complete the 46.

My membership is up at the end of August, too, he said ominously.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Is the Loj in any worse shape than the average AMC hut? I haven’t stayed there since 2002, but I haven’t spent the night in a hut since 1984. The Loj seemed nicer to me than Greenleaf hut did; cheaper, too.

It doesn’t make sense to me, either, to chop down a bunch of trees to make a new parking lot just so they can say they’re letting the existing one ‘‘revert to nature.’’ (Isn’t the current one pretty sandy, anyway?) Are they afraid too many people are getting in via South Meadow Road, they’re losing parking fees? There never seems to be anyone manning the toll booth anyway.

If they expect everyone to pass through a new visitors’ center before beginning a hike, will it be open at five a.m. for those early starts many hikes require? And by the way, with all the people working on the 46er list, plus all the ones who have finished the list in recent years, how could the total number of visitors possibly have dropped by a third? Heck, 1998 (the year cited in the article as having had 150,000 visitors, while 2006 had 100,000) is the year I caught the peakbagging bug myself, and I’ve made 20 trips to the Adirondacks since that August 1998 trip, usually accompanied by either my ladyfriend, Susan, or son, Cameron, or most commonly, both. And there used to be even more people than are there nowadays filling up the parking lots??

I’m glad Cam is down to his last seven High Peaks to complete the 46.

My membership is up at the end of August, too, he said ominously.

The toll booth may not be manned, but I have seen cars with tickets that failed to put their money in the drop box. Also, the bathrooms are open 24/7, so you can go in and do your business, change, get water, a shower, etc., whenever you need to.

In Winter at least, there are very few cars that park at South Meadows, so they are not losing a ton of money there. And Ken, it's $3.00 to park at the Loj if you are a member. That will not build a new building very fast.

I find it hard to believe that hiker numbers are down so much too, but that's what the numbers are telling them. I believe they go by trail head registration entries. So, I guess we should all sign in twice!

 

[BlackSpruce]

A vast majority of hikers are not members of the ADK and I believe that the $9 a day parking fee is keeping many visitors away from the Loj. The same has happened at the Garden, even though a few weekends are extremely busy, the revenues of both places have been overall down significantly I have been told. On the other end the St. Hubert and both Giant parkings are sometime full even on weekdays, it's free and much closer to the Northway, this summer (during the week as well) the parking of RPR via Bald Peak was very busy. Cascade always is, the only overall quieter trailhead this year was Hurricane, The Long Trail to Giant was busier than usual too, and I have been told that the Sewards parking lot was often filled to capacity, etc.

The question is, do climbers always register?

 

[HH1]

I commend ADK management on its revised Heart Lake master plan - to me, a 'win-win-win' proposition.

Although I still don't buy into the club's evolving mission, in my view one where conservation lobbying is trumping trail renewal, regardless of how you cut the mission pie the club must generate additional revenues if it wishes to remain relevant, never mind solvent, in the coming decades.

Changing membership demographics is prompting the ADK, like many other clubs to go outside to the general publc in seeking new funding sources.

In that regard, all roads lead to Heart Lake, the ADK's flagship asset. For it bears two stellar characteristics that make it so: the property itself possesses outstanding physical beautiful AND it is within a few minutes drive of Lake Placid, a prime Adirondack tourist destination.

It seems what the ADK plans to do is to turn Heart Lake into a small scale, northeast ecotourist destination, significantly upping its value in the process. Besides still attracting the traditional hiking culture, it will now draw environmentally 'green curious' windshield tourists who, over a comfortable night or two's stay, will commune with nature on the property, perhaps visit the education facilities, maybe buy merchandise and, in some cases, make donations or sign up for ADK membership.

The revised plan is a triple winner because:

- by expanding Heart Lake camping facilities and possibly decreasing Marcy Dam camp sites it will lessen overnight traffic in the High Peaks, a good thing in my estimation;

- the ADK puts itself in a postion to finally establish some degree of long term, dependable revenue sourcing it so sorely needs;

- folks who visit or stay at Heart Lake will want to check out Lake Placid, so the Lake Placid economy and surrounds benefit from Heart Lake ecotourism too. Anytime the local population benefits from an ADK initiative, I'm two thumbs up!

Cheers, Cliff

 

[ken]

A vast majority of hikers are not members of the ADK and I believe that the $9 a day parking fee is keeping many visitors away from the Loj.

my first trip up marcy many years ago was my first taste of ADK and the high parking fees, that's why i decided to never be a member - i think it sucks - i would rather walk from south meadow than give them too much money to park (and now they want to make it so no one can park there)??? the least they could do is make it free for members, but they squeeze them too - - i joined the AMC instead, at least they don't try to rob everyone on parking - i can see in NYC high parking fees, but up there they are supposed to be like 4 dollars...

 

[skiguy]

I commend ADK management on its revised Heart Lake master plan - to me, a 'win-win-win' proposition.

Although I still don't buy into the club's evolving mission, in my view one where conservation lobbying is trumping trail renewal, regardless of how you cut the mission pie the club must generate additional revenues if it wishes to remain relevant, never mind solvent, in the coming decades.

Changing membership demographics is prompting the ADK, like many other clubs to go outside to the general publc in seeking new funding sources.

In that regard, all roads lead to Heart Lake, the ADK's flagship asset. For it bears two stellar characteristics that make it so: the property itself possesses outstanding physical beautiful AND it is within a few minutes drive of Lake Placid, a prime Adirondack tourist destination.

It seems what the ADK plans to do is to turn Heart Lake into a small scale, northeast ecotourist destination, significantly upping its value in the process. Besides still attracting the traditional hiking culture, it will now draw environmentally 'green curious' windshield tourists who, over a comfortable night or two's stay, will commune with nature on the property, perhaps visit the education facilities, maybe buy merchandise and, in some cases, make donations or sign up for ADK membership.

The revised plan is a triple winner because:

- by expanding Heart Lake camping facilities and possibly decreasing Marcy Dam camp sites it will lessen overnight traffic in the High Peaks, a good thing in my estimation;

- the ADK puts itself in a postion to finally establish some degree of long term, dependable revenue sourcing it so sorely needs;

- folks who visit or stay at Heart Lake will want to check out Lake Placid, so the Lake Placid economy and surrounds benefit from Heart Lake ecotourism too. Anytime the local population benefits from an ADK initiative, I'm two thumbs up!

Cheers, Cliff

I agree with your comments but only in it's proposed theory. Do you know if an unbiased empirical demographic study has been done to support these theories? If so can you point me to a source that documents this. Thanks.

 

[HH1]

Skiguy,

No, I didn't base my comments on any demographic study, but if you place maybe a couple of calls to the ADK you might get pointed to some references.

However, having been an active member of both the ADK and a flat land hiking club up in here in Ottawa for the last twenty plus years, I state with certainty that membership has aged considerably and lacks the twenty through forty something year old faces that dominated these clubs in the 1980s.

Keep in mind, too, hikers numbers out on the trails don't necessarily correlate to club memberships.

Are you a member of any outings clubs? If so, what if any demographic changes have you observed?

Cheers, Cliff

 

[Gandalf]

I'm still trying to figure out what the new trail(s) near Heart Lake will look like (assuming that this Plan goes through). The two most logical layouts I can think of are 1) an Ubërtrail heading south from the new facility to the old HPIC, splitting there southeast for Marcy Dam-Marcy-McIntyres-etc and southwest for Indian Pass-Nye/Street-Mt. Jo, or 2) two trails right from the new facility, the first more or less following the current Truck Road to Marcy Dam (hardening for vastly increased foot traffic would likely be required) and the second heading more or less to the old lot with another split there (west for Indian Pass, east for the McIntyres).

As I've been planning on a few longer dayhikes from the Loj over the next few summers, I'll also be curious to discover the time frame for the transformations of these trails.