All My Layers Are Soaked - Now What?

[DougPaul]

p.s. I don't think I understood the true meaning of 'Alpine Style' until I read his book. I always saw that phrase as an excuse for lazy dudes to carry less than they should in the name of 'fast and light.' 'It's safer to carry less because you can move faster.' Look, it's safer to move fast if you're above 28000'. Or if you have to traverse an avalanche chute. Or if you're at the base of a massive cornice runout. But you're probably not being safe by forgoing basic safety gear in the name of summitting Mt. Osceola. Just sayin'.

Strictly speaking, alpine style is simply climbing to the objective in a single push rather than with multiple forays from a base camp. (There is an intermediate known as capsule style...)

Alpine style, particularly the extreme form used by Twight, tends to have a higher death rate than the more conservative styles. Safety margins are thin and if something goes wrong one can easily end up written up in the accident reports...

Alpine vs expedition style is not really an issue for the NE USA.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

In all my years of hiking, I have never encountered a scenario that has all my clothes wet. I carry backup clothes in waterproof bags and do not use it unless I have too. I manage to keep fairly dry in most situations. If it's going to rain hard for long periods, I stay home.

I think one can usually deal with weather if one so chooses--the real risk is falling in during stream and pond/lake crossings.

EDIT: Perhaps I should add that the above refers to the NE USA.

I have broken through the ice when crossing a pond on skis, but the water was (fortunately) only an inch or two deep... Once I escaped to firmer ice and the shore the biggest problem was cleaning the frozen mud off my skis.

Doug

 

[hikerbrian]

Strictly speaking, alpine style is simply climbing to the objective in a single push rather than with multiple forays from a base camp. (There is an intermediate known as capsule style...)

Alpine style, particularly the extreme form used by Twight, tends to have a higher death rate than the more conservative styles. Safety margins are thin and if something goes wrong one can easily end up written up in the accident reports...

Doug

Right, and so strictly speaking a single push to the summit of Mt. Osceola could be considered an alpine-style ascent. But I think the people who climb Mt. Osceola 'alpine style' (loose definition: minimal or no safety gear or contingency plans) do so out of ignorance or laziness, not out of a need to move quickly based on the objective hazards of the goal.

I personally have a lot more fun when I'm not constantly gripped with thoughts of impending death. I'm a baby that way.

 

[Mike P.]

Whatever works for you, by now Daytrip, your a veteran. If I'm heading out for a winter hike of several miles and / or fair amount of exposure, (NH, Catskills, ADK, Greylock, Monadnock), I do use a bigger pack, everything is in zip-locks. Carry one or two pair of extra glove liners, an extra pair of fleece wind-bloc gloves. Will wear a poly hat or poly balaclava to start and pack the wind-bloc one with the face mask. Usually carry another set of expedition mitts and overmitts for the liner and wind-bloc fleece combo. (On top of that, my water bottles are stored in double fleece mitts. If those come up, I need to think about heading down.

Depending on the weather, wearing a traditional base layer, a fleece shirt and maybe a light jogging vest for any light wind down low. Will pack an extra fleece shirt, thicker fleece top and shell.

I'll avoid the worst crossings (as do most which explains the Black Pond bushwhack.) Sweat is unavoidable in my case if walking uphill or more than a 1/2 mile even around the block.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I do one or two solo backpacking trips on the the valley trails each winter. I have played the game of trying to build a fire in winter time to see if I could do it.
Starting a fire is one thing; maintaining one is a very different and more difficult task. I reluctantly decided that relying on a fire to be able to get out of a bad situation is not an effective strategy for me.
So I do bring an extra set of upper and lower base layers, extra socks, extra gloves, extra hat, and bread bags in case my boots get soaked. That extra gear and my lack of conditioning, in turn, necessitates a pulk, which limits me.
Fortunately I have no particular destination or goal beyond getting a few bag nights far enough away from others that it feels remote to me.

 

[jfb]

Anybody use that type of alternate layering system as opposed to the base layer, mid layer(s), outer layer model? Rather than wear way too little layering to embrace the cold and avoid sweating this method acknowledges that not sweating is just about impossible for most humans and manages it's impact versus trying to avoid the inevitable.

I use the base layer, mid layer(s), shell model and it works fine. When I sweat, the moisture moves from my skin through the base and insulation layers and out the shell. If I'm working hard, some sweat gets absorbed, then evaporates when I slow down. What could be better than that?

 

[DougPaul]

Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht ("Dr Hypothermia", University of Manitoba) studies cold-water immersion and has published a number of articles on the topic. IMO, worth reading. http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/about/giesbrecht.html.

There are lots of good links from this page including:
* Hypothermia, Frostbite and other Cold Injuries (book)
http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=1254

Links to the following videos are at the bottom of the above web page:
* Cold Water Survival - Strategies for survival if you fall through the ice
* You’re Out, Now What? How to survive a night in the forest after losing your snowmobile through the ice
* Getting That Sinking Feeling - The importance of proper outerwear to keep you afloat and alive when snowmobiling

Doug

 

[sierra]

I think one can usually deal with weather if one so chooses--the real risk is falling in during stream and pond/lake crossings.

I have broken through the ice when crossing a pond on skis, but the water was (fortunately) only an inch or two deep... Once I escaped to firmer ice and the shore the biggest problem was cleaning the frozen mud off my skis.

Doug

True. One of my scariest outings, was descending Falling Water's Trail to find the streams uncrossable due to snow melt and rain. I bushwacked down, until I came to a large tree spanning the stream. I got on my belly and began to cross, the water was going so fast and filled with ice chunks, falling in was probably a death fall. Longest 20 ft. of my life.

 

[DougPaul]

Right, and so strictly speaking a single push to the summit of Mt. Osceola could be considered an alpine-style ascent. But I think the people who climb Mt. Osceola 'alpine style' (loose definition: minimal or no safety gear or contingency plans) do so out of ignorance or laziness, not out of a need to move quickly based on the objective hazards of the goal.

Agreed, but the distinction (of alpine style vs other styles) is only meaningful for mountains far harder than anything in the the NE USA--such as the Himalayas...

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

Edit to say my profile picture is one of those rare occassions where I've got an extra insulating layer on: polypro base layer (can't see), thin red fleece, dark gray fleece vest (rarely worn), and shell jacket. We're in a little lull between Adams and Jefferson, hence everything is unzipped, and my hat and hood are off.

Good catch! Knowing the people on this forum half a dozen people were typing a reply calling you out on the discrepancy.

 

[jfb]

The only difference is I never put a layer on over my shell.

I've only worn a sweater over a shell once. It was at the summit of Mt. Rainier where we had crossed the cone in light winds, then got blasted by a west wind at the very top. After taking a few pictures, we quickly descended and I removed the sweater.

 

[DayTrip]

Note that the moisture barrier needs to be at (or above) body temperature--if you put insulation under it so that it is cooler, then moisture will condense on it and the underlying insulation will become wet. (Basic thermodynamics...)

Doug

Funny you bring that up. When I did Cabot a few weeks back I experimented with a Polartec layer between the base layer and wind shirt (Twight is a huge fan of Polartec). It did still dry out reasonably well by the end of the day but I found myself much colder that day for whatever reason and ultimately over layered on the way down to stay warm. It was also a fairly damp day with light snow and snow on tree branches (although it was in the low 20's and breezy versus this past hike's conditions).

The best set up I have found (for me) so far has been two really thin base layer shirts (like an EMS Techwick I type thinness) and then the DriClime jacket.

 

[DayTrip]

Right, and so strictly speaking a single push to the summit of Mt. Osceola could be considered an alpine-style ascent. But I think the people who climb Mt. Osceola 'alpine style' (loose definition: minimal or no safety gear or contingency plans) do so out of ignorance or laziness, not out of a need to move quickly based on the objective hazards of the goal.

I personally have a lot more fun when I'm not constantly gripped with thoughts of impending death. I'm a baby that way.

The distinction I've seen mentioned is that "alpine style" means you carry everything you need for the entire climb on your own (i.e. no porters carrying supplies, base camps that you travel back and forth from, etc). When you're moving, everything you brought is traveling with you. Expedition style is simply the use of outside help, cached supplies, etc. Kind of a useless debate for day hiking in small mountains. I think I'd feel like a bit of a douche saying I was doing an alpine style traverse of Tom,Field and Willey this SAT.

 

[DayTrip]

Depending on the weather, wearing a traditional base layer, a fleece shirt and maybe a light jogging vest for any light wind down low. .

I added a soft shell vest to my "arsenal" this Fall for the shoulder season, primarily to have pockets for stashing stuff because the windshirt has none, and it has proven to be a very useful piece. I've always brought a light fleece vest with me in Summer so I figured having an in-between garment for Winter would probably help too.

 

[DayTrip]

I use the base layer, mid layer(s), shell model and it works fine. When I sweat, the moisture moves from my skin through the base and insulation layers and out the shell. If I'm working hard, some sweat gets absorbed, then evaporates when I slow down. What could be better than that?

This is what I started out doing but I found too often that the moisture didn't get out of the shell but accumulated on the inside wall and got the mid layers wet and/or frozen as the day went on. So I found myself wearing less layering underneath so on cold days I got cold faster, especially when I stopped. Was hardly a bad system but it wasn't quite right for me.

 

[jfb]

This is what I started out doing but I found too often that the moisture didn't get out of the shell but accumulated on the inside wall and got the mid layers wet and/or frozen as the day went on. So I found myself wearing less layering underneath so on cold days I got cold faster, especially when I stopped. Was hardly a bad system but it wasn't quite right for me.

You were probably using a hardshell. What does Mark Twight write about hard-shells? And my insulation is wool sweaters. ONLY wool sweaters. Any other fabric between your skin and shell will block moisture. And the base layer can be either wool or synthetic (if you can stand the smell). As far as Mark Twight hating wool, I didn't get the feeling that he had any experience wearing wool.

 

[DayTrip]

True. One of my scariest outings, was descending Falling Water's Trail to find the streams uncrossable due to snow melt and rain. I bushwacked down, until I came to a large tree spanning the stream. I got on my belly and began to cross, the water was going so fast and filled with ice chunks, falling in was probably a death fall. Longest 20 ft. of my life.

That is the main reason I have never ascended OBP/Greenleaf first and descended FWT (OK maybe the ass kicking climb up the Agonies is a factor too. ) Never like leaving the uncertainty in hike for the end when fatigue and other factors may be at play, like wet ledges, rough steeps and river crossings. A lot of people like going up OBP for the favorable prevailing wind direction but if the wind is blowing that hard that this is even a consideration I probably wouldn't be up there in the first place.

 

[TCD]

Knew I had seen this somewhere; took me a little while to find it:

http://www.military.com/video/force...endure-hypothermia-for-training/4063173902001

 

[DayTrip]

You were probably using a hardshell. What does Mark Twight write about hard-shells? And my insulation is wool sweaters. ONLY wool sweaters. Any other fabric between your skin and shell will block moisture. And the base layer can be either wool or synthetic (if you can stand the smell).

He doesn't like wool because of the weight and the fact that it partially absorbs water, which also adds weight and makes it dry slower. Relative to his perspective and climbing style I totally get that. Probably not the factor for us here in the Whites that it is for someone like him measuring every precious ounce. I pretty regularly wear synthetic jackets over my hard shell and I agree with Twight that it works well. I think it has a similar effect to what the DriClime/poly base layers do. The temp difference drives the moisture to the outside of the shell and stays liquid so the hardshell doesn't freeze and the insulation doesn't get very wet because it is exposed to the breeze/lower outside temperatures. I haven't really been out in truly cold weather so far this year though so I haven't had a chance to see how it performs in really cold conditions. I'm expecting the increased temperature gradient to make it work even better but maybe the condensation will ice too. Won't know until I try it. Somewhere around -20 deg F (in absolute or wind chill equivalent terms) is my "stay home" temperature so if it works in these conditions too I'd say I'm 100% sold on the concept.

I got an Arc'teryx Nuclei jacket this fall on a 40% off clearance sale that I wear regularly over my hard shell and it works out awesome (the jacket in general is pretty awesome no matter how I use it). It is made with their CoreLoft insulation (whatever the hell that is - it is synthetic), only weighs 10 ounces (it has a hood and two chest pockets) and is impossibly warm and breathable even when it is wet. I can wear just that jacket and a cotton t-shirt on a breezy day in the 20's and sweat taking a nice easy walk in it, which is a hell of an accomplishment for someone who gets as cold as I do. I've been able to use this garment in a variety of configurations to stay warm without wearing so many layers. (It does have a very delicate shell material so I try not to wear it as the outermost layer when I'm in the trees. For that reason I'm still messing with soft shell combinations instead of using it exclusively, which I suspect would be more than enough).

P.S. The synthetic layers do indeed get funky after a long day in the system I described. I only have one thin merino wool base layer which I haven't tried yet. And yes I was using a hard shell originally. When I first started hiking I did get a soft shell and the breathability was horrible. Worse than my hardshell. So I went to the hard shell system. Down the road as I read and learned more about the gear I realized my original softshell was extremely heavy and windstopper as well. I have since acquired several soft shells of various breathability ranges that I now use much more often. Hard shell generally only comes out if it is wet, trees have a lot of snow on them or it is super cold/breezy.

 

[jfb]

He doesn't like wool because of the weight and the fact that it partially absorbs water, which also adds weight and makes it dry slower. Relative to his perspective and climbing style I totally get that. Probably not the factor for us here in the Whites that it is for someone like him measuring every precious ounce. I pretty regularly wear synthetic jackets over my hard shell and I agree with Twight that it works well. I think it has a similar effect to what the DriClime/poly base layers do. The temp difference drives the moisture to the outside of the shell and stays liquid so the hardshell doesn't freeze and the insulation doesn't get very wet because it is exposed to the breeze/lower outside temperatures. I haven't really been out in truly cold weather so far this year though so I haven't had a chance to see how it performs in really cold conditions. I'm expecting the increased temperature gradient to make it work even better but maybe the condensation will ice too. Won't know until I try it. Somewhere around -20 deg F (in absolute or wind chill equivalent terms) is my "stay home" temperature so if it works in these conditions too I'd say I'm 100% sold on the concept.

I got an Arc'teryx Nuclei jacket this fall on a 40% off clearance sale that I wear regularly over my hard shell and it works out awesome (the jacket in general is pretty awesome no matter how I use it). It is made with their CoreLoft insulation (whatever the hell that is - it is synthetic), only weighs 10 ounces (it has a hood and two chest pockets) and is impossibly warm and breathable even when it is wet. I can wear just that jacket and a cotton t-shirt on a breezy day in the 20's and sweat taking a nice easy walk in it, which is a hell of an accomplishment for someone who gets as cold as I do. I've been able to use this garment in a variety of configurations to stay warm without wearing so many layers. (It does have a very delicate shell material so I try not to wear it as the outermost layer when I'm in the trees. For that reason I'm still messing with soft shell combinations instead of using it exclusively, which I suspect would be more than enough).

P.S. The synthetic layers do indeed get funky after a long day in the system I described. I only have one thin merino wool base layer which I haven't tried yet. And yes I was using a hard shell originally. When I first started hiking I did get a soft shell and the breathability was horrible. Worse than my hardshell. So I went to the hard shell system. Down the road as I read and learned more about the gear I realized my original softshell was extremely heavy and windstopper as well. I have since acquired several soft shells of various breathability ranges that I now use much more often. Hard shell generally only comes out if it is wet, trees have a lot of snow on them or it is super cold/breezy.

I hope that you find what you're looking for. You certainly seem to be trying hard!