Alpine Airplane wrecks

[hermit]

The crash on Overlook is on the Woodstock side of the Mtn..From the tower there is a herd path from the second telephone pole to a ledge. Just below the ledge is the site.On Panther ,I was told that there is a Trainer Jet crash and a commercial type plane in 2 different areas.I have some friends looking into fine tuning the search area for me.They will be talking to some oldtimers for me.I think Jay, Matt,and myself were real close last Sunday in finding the jet on Panther.I think the split in the stream took us a bit off course.Mt.Tremper also has a crash site,but I have not seen it. By the Grogkill?

 

[erd]

Thanks, Ralph. Keep me posted on the Panther wreck/wrecks.

******

Here is a list of the Catskill crashes of which I am certain. I have not visited all sites, but for those I have not visited I have newspaper accounts or solid reports. If any readers are aware of sites not on this list, please advise.

E to W

Stoppel Point
Kaaterskill High Peak (2)
Overlook
Asholan Reservoir, Olive (2-two-plane aerial collision during manoeveurs)
Ashokan High Point
West Kill
Balsam Cap
Van Wyck/Table (3)
Eagle
Doubletop (2)
Dry Brook Ridge (2) [newspaper accounts via Laurie Moore]

To these, there are the following possibles.

Panther (1/2)
Slide 1
Escarpment 1, if I am interpreting NTSB report correctly

I'd be very interested in confirmation of the Slide crash in particular, and hope to have clarification of the Panther soon (Ralph & Co.--give me a call if you are heading up soon).

This does seem to be an extraordinary concentration. Possible contributing factors (other than the nature of mountains themselves) include the period of military practice flights, the Ashokan being mistaken for the Hudson and unpredictable weather conditions.

It's not, I hope, out of place here to ask that all crash sites be treated with respect. I've lugged out many beer cans, noted much graffiti on some and have seen parts hauled away from the site. The bottom line is that, as interesting as these wrecks are, they are places where people met sudden death; some (Westkill, for example) are positively heart-wrenching.


Ted.

 

[funkyfreddy]

Ted, thanks for asking everyone to treat these places with respect. I think this goes without saying it for most of us - at least the VFTT'ers I've hiked with - but as this is a public forum it is good of you to remind us. I also believe in treating the crash sites with respect as well as other ruins and natural places. Such places are irreplaceable and should be left for others to explore and learn from.

Ralph,Ted, Jay, Rondak46, etc. - Please let me know when you're heading out to any Catskill crash sites as I would also like to go along if I'm able and you're in the mood for company. Thanks, Fred

 

[hermit]

Fred,
I am always in the mood for company on a hike ,and have enjoyed hiking with you and the rest of the folks.Ted's point about respect for the sites is a good one.Over the years I have noticed some of the props missing from the Balsam cap crash.I will let you know when I go back up Panther again. It may be short notice however,but if I find it I will probably go back again.I sometimes look for just about any reason to explore new territory.

 

[erd]

I've spent a little time looking over newspaper reports plus Rondak's TSB list (thanks for spending time on this--I've been meaning to go through for a while). Here's what's I can confirm (two) and what I or others have guessed (in chronological order of post).

DEFINITE: Identification: NYC87FA188
This is the lower KHP crash, though the paper states morning of June 26 (not 25) and there was only one fatality, not two. Nota Bene: NTSB reports may not be that accurate!!

DEFINITE: Identification: NYC78FA005
This is, as discussed, the upper Van Wyck accident.

NOT KNOWN: Identification: NYC90FA039
Stated as 2500 foot impact on a 3400 foot peak, with six fatalaties, in Cairo Township, this seems to be an un-noted Escarpment accident

DEFINITE: Identification: NYC88FA248
This is one of the two Dry Brook crashes (the one on Dry Brook itself, not that on School House Mountain). Newspaper clippings.

NOT KNOWN: Identification: NYC83FA125
Stated as Piper, Haines Falls, One possibility for Stoppel crash. There is a typed laminated plaque with history of the crash (or was last year) which would clear this up!

NOT KNOWN: Identification: NYC73AN114
Haines Falls. Cessna. Most likely the South Mountain crash if not the Stoppel (I have heard of this but I have not located it)

FAIRLY CERTAIN: Identification: NYC67A0178
Tannersville, NY. Stated by Moose as upper KHP crash. Stated position (30' below summit) makes this very likely.

PRETTY CERTAIN: Identification NYC65A0117
The Woodstock location makes it pretty certain this is the Overlook crash

NOT KNOWN. Identification: NYC83FA192
If Acra as stated, this is presumably an unnoted crash on the Windham portion of the Escarpment.

Ted.

 

[Warren]

NOT KNOWN: Identification: NYC73AN114
Haines Falls. Cessna. Most likely the South Mountain crash if not the Stoppel (I have heard of this but I have not located it).

I saw a set of wings one spring, years ago set back from the Mary Glen trail or the Rock Shelter trail that may belong to this crash. At the time I was mystified that it could have been the wings from the Stoppel Point crash.

 

[erd]

Thanks, Warren -- this confirms what I have heard a couple of times. I've not seen the site, despite having done those trails more than a few times -- I assume it's a bit off the trail itself?

Ted.

 

[erd]

Here's a revised list, taking in the NTSB information. I'm assuming that there are still a few Catskill sites out there that I don't know about in addition. Between this list and some material recently sent to me by a friend, the number of crash sites has advanced considerably. All I can say, looking at this, is thank goodness that private planes now carry GPS, and we no longer have USAF practice flights. The carnage represented by this list is pretty bad. One newspaper clipping I have mentions that the crash in question (the one on the KHP snowmobile trail, as I recall) was the third such to occur very recently within the region.

E to W

Stoppel Point (1)
South Mountain (1)
Kaaterskill High Peak (2)
Overlook (1)
Ashokan Reservoir, Olive (2-two-plane aerial collision during manoeveurs)
Ashokan High Point (1)
West Kill (1)
Balsam Cap (1)
Van Wyck/Table (3)
Eagle (1)
Doubletop (2)
Dry Brook Ridge (1)
School House Mountain (Dry Brook) (1)


The following are known to have occurred and are not otherwise accounted for, but location is uncertain:

Cairo. 2400' on 3400' peak (possibly shoulder of Blackhead). NTSB (1)
Acra. Acra Point, Burnt Knob or (possibly) Windham High Peak. NTSB (1)

To these, there are the following strong possibles.

Mt. Tremper (1)
Panther (1 or 2)
Slide (1)

 

[Warren]

Thanks, Warren -- this confirms what I have heard a couple of times. I've not seen the site, despite having done those trails more than a few times -- I assume it's a bit off the trail itself?

Ted.

I saw it about 10 years ago on an Easter Sunday it would only be visible when there are no leaves.

 

[erd]

I had been mulling the lack of pre-war records. A correspondent (Harry Rampe) mentioned that there had been an air crash in the 1930s on Mongaup Mountain. A quick online search turned up the following:

06/09/1934 LOCATION: Mongaup Mountain, New York CARRIER: American Airways FLIGHT: AIRCRAFT: Curtiss Condor T-32 REGISTRY: NC12354 S/N: 22 ABOARD: 7 FATAL: 7 GROUND: DETAILS: Crashed into Last Chance Hill in the Catskill Mountains at an altitude of 2,000 feet in fog and thunderstorms while on a flight from New York to Chicago.

 

[Rivet]

NOT KNOWN: Identification: NYC83FA125
Stated as Piper, Haines Falls, One possibility for Stoppel crash. There is a typed laminated plaque with history of the crash (or was last year) which would clear this up!

This is the Stoppel Point crash (N1316T).

 

[erd]

Thanks, Rivet. That was my first candidate. I've adjusted my list accordingly. I think that makes NTSB NYC73AN114 the S. Mountain crash, which makes sense as the park is in Haines Falls, the cited township.

 

[rondak46]

Thanks Rivet,

I changed my entries as well..

 

[funkyfreddy]

Fred, I am always in the mood for company on a hike ,and have enjoyed hiking with you and the rest of the folks.

Hi Ralph, Always lots of fun to hike with you, and a educational for me as well! I love learning more about the Catskills whenever I can. It looks like I'm out for this weekend, have some work to finish the next few days. I was wondering though.......

Is anyone game for next weekend, May 7th + 8th? I would like to get out and look for more of these sites before the foliage grows in too much this spring. Let me know if you're interested. Thanks, Fred

 

[hermit]

Hi Fred,
I am open for the 7th,but the 8th I will be out with Mom..We can go for the Panther Mtn.crash or crashes??,or Friday Mtn. b26 that I have been to many times.Lately I have been spending 50 hrs. a week behind a computer,and feel like I need to get out and get some mileage in.So I will be up for just about anything.Here is a pic. of Maddy at the Van Wyck jet crash on 4-16

 

[funkyfreddy]

Right, Mothers day, forgot about that - have to make sure I can get to a phone on Sunday! Saturday would be good for a hike and might want to camp out Sat. night., hopefully the weather will be decent. I here you about the computer, been getting a bit of eye strain myself with all of the mixing I've been doing lately. I'm up for either Panther or Friday, also thinking of maybe trying the Wildcats on Sunday. Have you ever climbed Roundtop by Kaaterskill HP? Fred

 

[Rivet]

This one hit the Catskill Escarpment near stopple point. It does not appear to be the wreck on the escarpment trail though, due to the elevation difference..

NTSB Identification: NYC90FA039 .
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 42191.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, December 15, 1989 in CAIRO TOWNSHIP, NY
Probable Cause Approval Date: 7/22/1992
Aircraft: PIPER PA-31-350, registration: N45CH
Injuries: 6 Fatal.
DURING A PRE-FLIGHT WEATHER BRIEFING, THE INSTRUMENT RATED PILOT WAS TOLD BY THE AFSS SPECIALIST THAT MARGINAL VFR AND IFR CONDIITONS WOULD PREVAIL ALONG THE ROUTE OF FLIGHT. THE PILOT DID NOT FILE A FLIGHT PLAN. THE AIRPLANE WAS LAST DEPICTED ON RADAR AT 2500 FEET MSL AND HEADING TOWARDS HIGH TERRAIN. A NY STATE TROOPER LEAVING HIS OFFICE ABOUT THE TIME THE ACCIDENT OCCURRED STATED SNOW WAS FALLING VERY HARD AND VISIBILITY WAS LOW. THE STATE TROOPER'S OFFICE WAS ABOUT 5 MILES FROM THE CRASH SITE. THE AIRPLANE HIT A 3400 FOOT MOUNTAIN AT AN ELEVATION OF 2500 FEET. THE AIRPLANE WAS MISSING 4 DAYS AND WAS FOUND BY THE CREW OF A NY STATE POLICE HELICOPTER.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

THE PILOT'S DECISION TO FLY INTO THE KNOWN ADVERSE WEATHER AND HIS FAILURE TO SELECT AN ALTITUDE THAT WOULD PROVIDE TERRAIN CLEARANCE. FACTORS WERE: THE ADVERSE WEATHER AND THE PILOT'S DISREGARD FOR THE FORECASTED CONDITIONS.

This one I think is on Blackhead mountain. Here is the obituary...

"Windham Journal - issue of Thursday, December 21, 1989, page 1

Downed plane found in Jewett, bodies recovered

A two engine Piper Navajo plane missing for four days was found Tuesday, December 19, at 2:15 p.m. by a New York state helicopter assigned to the lost plane search in Greene county. The wreckage was spotted by the helicopter on the Black Head Mountain in East Jewett. Due to the rugged terrain of the area it was impossible to get to the location other than with a person being dropped by helicopter as close as possible to the scene.

U.S. Air Force Rescue Team member from the 106 Air Station Guard in Westhampton went to the scene and determined that it was the plane, but that it did not appear to be any sign of life.

On Wednesday morning, as the W.J. is going to press, recovery details are recovering the bodies of the pilot and the five passengers who after attending a business meeting in Glens Falls last Friday were on their way to Montgomery.

The pilot was Timothy Burns, 27, Allentown, N.J.; the five passengers were Salvatore Arlotta, Jr., 42, Wallkill; Peter Lovi, 33, Pine Bush, both employees of the Wehran Engineering environmental consulting firm in Middletown; Ronald D. Pacchiana, 56, Pound Ridge, president of Briar Contracting and owner of Unicorn Industries, Ltd., both in Peekskill; Attorney Michael J. Trainor, 45, New York City and Timothy P. Burns, 44, Yonkers.

Their plane disappeared from radar screens Friday evening about 30 miles south of Albany, it was reported. Radar put the plane at an altitude of 2,300 feet when it disappeared. Blackhead Mountain, Black Dome and Thomas Cole mountains are more than 3,900 ft high. The area in East Jewett/Maplecrest had received about 8 inches of snow since Friday.

More than 20 aircraft searched a 5,000 square mile area in the Catskills and the Hudson Valley on Tuesday."

 

[rondak46]

Cool,

I edited my post.

Mike

 

[hermit]

I had a friend of mine check with a retired ranger,and he said that there is a small 2 seater plane in Hatchery Hollow off Panther Mtn. I think the trainer jet is one of the 2 crash sites on Doubletop.I have climbed Doubletop quite a few times,both peaks but haven't found or looked for any of the sites.Anyone know anything about the jet crash? Fred,if I can get some info.on any of the sites on Doubletop,and if they are on State Land I may go there Sat.I need to bag Doubletop for May for the 35 x12 grid.If I go I will call Bill Sholls the caretaker for permission.

 

[erd]

Rivet -- thanks for the newspaper citation. That's a sorry business.

Did you find the citation online, via the newspaper, at the library...?

There are, BTW, a couple of crashes over in the Andes direction in the Western Catskills.

I hope to locate a newspaper citation for the 1936 Mongaup crash, which is an early US air disaster (excluding the Hindenberg, naturally).

Ted.