AMC -vs- the snowmobiles (Union Leader article)
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MadRiver
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maineguy said:"Are you referring to the Mass Supreme Court or the Sox??
Good one
Waumbek
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Here's a link to lead front-page article in today's Union Leader on AMC v. snowmobiles. Nothing much new to me in it except that WMNF has gotten involved. My guess is that the reroute will go through for this year and a compromise involving WMNF will be worked out for later although that depends on what the judge says.
I think the more interesting question is how the Cog/MWH people managed to get the DOT to plow the Cog road. Haven't they been trying to get the State to do this for years???
Rumors flying around the notches are that the order came from Craig himself, and completely bypassed DOT. Rumors are also that a new truck had to be bought for the job. Even a new employee hired? True or not? No idea. But interesting questions all.
And how in heck will the Cog Road withstand all of the frost being beaten down into it by the truck traffic? I'll bet you see the State having to redo that road within a few years.
Rumors flying around the notches are that the order came from Craig himself, and completely bypassed DOT. Rumors are also that a new truck had to be bought for the job. Even a new employee hired? True or not? No idea. But interesting questions all.
And how in heck will the Cog Road withstand all of the frost being beaten down into it by the truck traffic? I'll bet you see the State having to redo that road within a few years.
Waumbek
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The ghost of Samuel Bemis
Bemis was one of the earliest American landscape photographers (daguerrotype) and no doubt the earliest in the White Mountains. The Bierstadt Bros. didn't get going until a decade or so later. There's an 1840 (or '41) picture he took of the Crawford Notch out in the Getty in L.A. How odd that he ends up in the middle of this court case. This is from Edith Tucker's article today in the Coos Country Democrat (Lancaster NH). Tucker really digs deep for the facts:
"The AMC has argued that the new snowmobile trail down to the Crawford Depot that runs within 300 or so feet from the Highland Center should not open on Dec. 22.
Although the state Bureau of Trails and other state agencies, including the Bureau of Rails of the state Department of Transportation (NHDOT), have assumed that the AMC is merely an abutter to the proposed trail, the nonprofit Club contends that it holds a warranty deed that conveys a fee (purchased ownership) interest in about an acre-and-a-half of land under the old Maine Central RailroadÕs Mountain Division right of way near the Crawford Depot, and that the state holds only a release deed with no warranties.
In determining the validity of AMCÕs position, Judge Fitzgerald will apparently have to interpret the 1867 law that was in effect when the Portland and Ogdensburg Railroad purchased a 66-foot right of way from Dr. Samuel Bemis (a dentist and large area landowner.)
The stateÕs witnesses, including Bureau of Rails chief Christopher ÒKitÓ Morgan, spoke to the issue, and agreed that the rail line is still ÒactiveÓ and not Òabandoned.Ó
This is a key point, AMC lawyers said, since the state only has the right to use inactive abandoned rail lines as snowmobile corridors and not active rail lines.
However, it was noted that this was a far safer route than using the shoulders or embankments along the side of Route 302 from FabyanÕs Restaurant to the Mt. Clinton Road, primarily because drivers find oncoming snowmobile headlights on the ÒwrongÓ side of the road extremely confusing.
Department of Transportation Division 1 engineer Greg Placy testified that he had issued snowmobile crossing permits on Route 302 to accommodate the new route because he believed that they were safe and had more than adequate sight lines.
The AMC argued that snowmobiles zipping along the new trail, 24/7 during the winter months, including on what are potentially high-speed railroad straight-aways, would irreparably harm the quiet and serene outdoor atmosphere on which the design of its new and renovated buildings sought to capitalize.
AMC Deputy Director Walter Graff of Randolph described the middle-school Mountain Classroom program at the Highland Center as being crafted to teach youngsters about the natural world, including night-time sensory awareness training that includes stargazing and listening to mating owls hoot in January and February. Older members and guests come for the new facilityÕs sense of place and quiet natural setting, which does not include snowmobiles, he said.
ÒWe think the new trail on the rail bed will be a drag race, similar to what the Base Road itself has been,Ó Mr. Graff said. Snowmobiles could endanger Highland Lodge students and guests and it also raises liability issues for the club, he said.
Anne Edwards of the state Attorney GeneralÕs office asserted that the AMCÕs bias against motorized transportation was unrealistic in that location since the ClubÕs 26-acre parcel is flanked by a rail corridor and Route 302, a busy Class I highway, over which tractor-trailers grind up the steep Notch road."
Bemis was one of the earliest American landscape photographers (daguerrotype) and no doubt the earliest in the White Mountains. The Bierstadt Bros. didn't get going until a decade or so later. There's an 1840 (or '41) picture he took of the Crawford Notch out in the Getty in L.A. How odd that he ends up in the middle of this court case. This is from Edith Tucker's article today in the Coos Country Democrat (Lancaster NH). Tucker really digs deep for the facts:
"The AMC has argued that the new snowmobile trail down to the Crawford Depot that runs within 300 or so feet from the Highland Center should not open on Dec. 22.
Although the state Bureau of Trails and other state agencies, including the Bureau of Rails of the state Department of Transportation (NHDOT), have assumed that the AMC is merely an abutter to the proposed trail, the nonprofit Club contends that it holds a warranty deed that conveys a fee (purchased ownership) interest in about an acre-and-a-half of land under the old Maine Central RailroadÕs Mountain Division right of way near the Crawford Depot, and that the state holds only a release deed with no warranties.
In determining the validity of AMCÕs position, Judge Fitzgerald will apparently have to interpret the 1867 law that was in effect when the Portland and Ogdensburg Railroad purchased a 66-foot right of way from Dr. Samuel Bemis (a dentist and large area landowner.)
The stateÕs witnesses, including Bureau of Rails chief Christopher ÒKitÓ Morgan, spoke to the issue, and agreed that the rail line is still ÒactiveÓ and not Òabandoned.Ó
This is a key point, AMC lawyers said, since the state only has the right to use inactive abandoned rail lines as snowmobile corridors and not active rail lines.
However, it was noted that this was a far safer route than using the shoulders or embankments along the side of Route 302 from FabyanÕs Restaurant to the Mt. Clinton Road, primarily because drivers find oncoming snowmobile headlights on the ÒwrongÓ side of the road extremely confusing.
Department of Transportation Division 1 engineer Greg Placy testified that he had issued snowmobile crossing permits on Route 302 to accommodate the new route because he believed that they were safe and had more than adequate sight lines.
The AMC argued that snowmobiles zipping along the new trail, 24/7 during the winter months, including on what are potentially high-speed railroad straight-aways, would irreparably harm the quiet and serene outdoor atmosphere on which the design of its new and renovated buildings sought to capitalize.
AMC Deputy Director Walter Graff of Randolph described the middle-school Mountain Classroom program at the Highland Center as being crafted to teach youngsters about the natural world, including night-time sensory awareness training that includes stargazing and listening to mating owls hoot in January and February. Older members and guests come for the new facilityÕs sense of place and quiet natural setting, which does not include snowmobiles, he said.
ÒWe think the new trail on the rail bed will be a drag race, similar to what the Base Road itself has been,Ó Mr. Graff said. Snowmobiles could endanger Highland Lodge students and guests and it also raises liability issues for the club, he said.
Anne Edwards of the state Attorney GeneralÕs office asserted that the AMCÕs bias against motorized transportation was unrealistic in that location since the ClubÕs 26-acre parcel is flanked by a rail corridor and Route 302, a busy Class I highway, over which tractor-trailers grind up the steep Notch road."
afka_bob
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more snowmobile trail teeth-gnashing
This article in yesterday’s Union Leader talks about some more snowmobile trail woes, this in the Lakes Region. The article mentions a forum where a lot of sledders post, and it provides some valuable insight on their point of view. Interesting to note the AMC is involved in this one, too (go down to post #33). Also some earlier refs to AMC in Crawford Notch (post #20).
This article in yesterday’s Union Leader talks about some more snowmobile trail woes, this in the Lakes Region. The article mentions a forum where a lot of sledders post, and it provides some valuable insight on their point of view. Interesting to note the AMC is involved in this one, too (go down to post #33). Also some earlier refs to AMC in Crawford Notch (post #20).
Waumbek
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afka_bob, it's posts #37-38 in that thread that I hear echoed locally, and as one of those "tree-huggers" I'm asked to explain the AMC's apparent hypocrisy. I'm a dues-paying member (family membership) for nearly 30 years and will continue to contribute. I disagree with much of what they do but not to the point that I think they do more harm than good. (I'm always ready to reasses that balance, however.) The problem with the Highland hotel, though, is that when the AMC built it, they lost the "moral edge" when it comes to conflicts like this one. They may win in court but they're getting a black eye in publicity even among people who don't like and wouldn't use (me) snowmobiles. I see AMC stress again and again that it's the school children there for educational programs and older people most endangered by the potential snowmobile merry-go-round. But it's commonly believed, true or false, that the Highland hotel has ended up lodging mainly downhill skiers for Bretton Woods, Cannon, etc., in the winter. Nothing wrong with a hotel doing that but it blunts their moral edge in this conflict.
If the AMC wants to convince people that it's an "educational facility" (even though it has a liquor license) that deserves special protection and to garner local support, which would come in handy here, it needs to reach out to its neighbors not just to us dues-paying members. We often see notices in local newspapers and such for interesting and free lectures at Pinkham. That's a long haul at night from Franconia so I don't usually go. I've never seen a notice like that for Highland. Who knows, even snowmobilers might go and begin to see the AMC's position about its special character. I say "even snowmobilers" ironically, of course. It's not just AMC'ers who might want to go out at night and listen to the owls. A judge will decide this case one way or the other but the larger issue of competing interests and land use will persist. That's why this case is so relevant to the north country. It's not just about bashing snowmobiles or bashing the AMC. It's about all the people I know up here who are thinking about getting a "quiet little country place" somewhere. Must sound funny to urbanites, I know, but I've got my eye on a little place up north of Colebrook....
If the AMC wants to convince people that it's an "educational facility" (even though it has a liquor license) that deserves special protection and to garner local support, which would come in handy here, it needs to reach out to its neighbors not just to us dues-paying members. We often see notices in local newspapers and such for interesting and free lectures at Pinkham. That's a long haul at night from Franconia so I don't usually go. I've never seen a notice like that for Highland. Who knows, even snowmobilers might go and begin to see the AMC's position about its special character. I say "even snowmobilers" ironically, of course. It's not just AMC'ers who might want to go out at night and listen to the owls. A judge will decide this case one way or the other but the larger issue of competing interests and land use will persist. That's why this case is so relevant to the north country. It's not just about bashing snowmobiles or bashing the AMC. It's about all the people I know up here who are thinking about getting a "quiet little country place" somewhere. Must sound funny to urbanites, I know, but I've got my eye on a little place up north of Colebrook....
arghman
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I had been thinking down that road for a while but have given up on it, there are too many people already who have begun to ruin the "rural character" by building big fancy out-of-place houses & there's no telling what things will be like in 10 or 20 years.waumbek said:
even Pittsburg is going that way and it's the end of the road.waumbek (& others), thanks for posting these articles so we can follow what's going on.
Blue
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Stan said:
It's not the snowmobilers who are undesireable, it's the snowmobiles.
Consider studies done in Yellowstone, that have shown air pollutions levels that far exceed federal standards. Consider this study by the Forest Service that focused on organic pollutants found in the snow pack along Yellowstone snowmobile routes that could affect the local watershed. Snowmobiles can affect wildlife with the emissions of MTBEs and with noise. The University of Vermont in 1999, provides a good overview here.
Jeffrey Bleich said it best in Ecology Law Quarterly:
"Studies of ORV effects found that public land managers have mistaken the displacement of traditional recreationists by ORV users as a reflection of decreased demand for traditional recreation. Land managers who observe a site with ORV's and no pedestrians plan additional sites for ORV's."
ChrisB
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Playing the Education Card
I have seen AMC marketing material (Web site) that touts the use of Highland as a corporate convention and meeting center. I assume this is a strategy to drive occupancy, especially in shoulder seasons.
I find it a bit disingeneous of them to now play the education card in this dispute as a primary rationale to keep snowmobiles away from the property.
I think that additional snow machine traffic in the Key-hole area at the top of the notch will indeed degrade the quality of the experinece. But, the scale of Highland itself has done that as well.
Where the AMCs Highland policy is concerned, that old addage might apply...
...What comes around goes around.
cb
I have seen AMC marketing material (Web site) that touts the use of Highland as a corporate convention and meeting center. I assume this is a strategy to drive occupancy, especially in shoulder seasons.
I find it a bit disingeneous of them to now play the education card in this dispute as a primary rationale to keep snowmobiles away from the property.
I think that additional snow machine traffic in the Key-hole area at the top of the notch will indeed degrade the quality of the experinece. But, the scale of Highland itself has done that as well.
Where the AMCs Highland policy is concerned, that old addage might apply...
...What comes around goes around.
cb
Stan
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Blue said:
I agree that many snowmobile models are "undesireable" from pollution, safety and noise perspectives but what I was responding to was the snobbery of "can they (AMC) restrict assess (sic) to their facility to anyone they deem undesirable?" I don't share the self-righteous view of those who hold our recreational interests superior to others, as much as I strongly and exclusively prefer to snow shoe and xc ski over motorized sports.
Pollution, safety and noise can all be addressed without banishing snowmobilers from the kingdom. My routes occasionally overlap with snowmobile trails and I don't lose sight of who maintains them. I have never encountered the hostility that some people have towards snowmobilers.
In Crawford Notch and in the Winnepesaukee area, the ineptitude with which trail closures and relocations have been made is pathetic. There are worthwhile goals in each effort but the bitterness with which it has been done only serves to create hard feelings and drive a needlessly divisive wedge between us "tree huggers" and those "stink pots" ... we share certain common interests that we should build upon and not in a way that tears down the other's passions.
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Blue said:
I've been staying out of this discussion up to this point, but this mirrors my feelings best. I see the problem as the loud, smelly machines and feel it should be approached from that direction.
Though Kevin's comment near the begining about 2000 'mobiles a day does make me think again, I wouldn't want 2000 hikers a day in that area...
Jaytrek57
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Not much to add except...
I find it interesting here in the NE in the area of multi use.
This past October I was in Moab for a spell and the issue is not hikers vs. ORV...its ORV vs. mountain bikers. And though debates often grow heated...there seemed to be general acceptance of the virtues of both endeavors. Granted there is more land.
I also wonder how far both sides on this issue in NH will push. As the kids I work with say, “not for nuthing”, but I fear the winter “hiking” community may not want to push to far with the snowmobile…”wake a sleeping giant”??…comes to mind and if push comes to shove the snowmobile community has more influence IMHO ($$$).
BTW...I have never used a snowmobile but I take the 5th on a Jetski.
Great points everyone.
I find it interesting here in the NE in the area of multi use.
This past October I was in Moab for a spell and the issue is not hikers vs. ORV...its ORV vs. mountain bikers. And though debates often grow heated...there seemed to be general acceptance of the virtues of both endeavors. Granted there is more land.
I also wonder how far both sides on this issue in NH will push. As the kids I work with say, “not for nuthing”, but I fear the winter “hiking” community may not want to push to far with the snowmobile…”wake a sleeping giant”??…comes to mind and if push comes to shove the snowmobile community has more influence IMHO ($$$).
BTW...I have never used a snowmobile but I take the 5th on a Jetski.
Great points everyone.
spider solo
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like trying to stop the wind..
I wouldn't fear "waking a sleeping gaint" to much on this one...off hand I would say we have ... "a snowballs chance in hell "... of being heard on this issue.
I believe they will continue to grow stronger and more demanding of their "rights".. yadda yadda etc.
That being said, in my family it was my mother who was the 1st to buy a snowmobile (in her 60's at the time) then later an AtV.. each one used to get back and forth to her house depending on the season. I would say the 1st thing we learned was the animosity snowmobilers have towards ATV's...it pales in comparison to how they feel about hikers.
Time moves on, my mother and snowmobiles have departed (as well as the one I owned) The AtV is used around our yard for plowing and yard work.and my recreation is non motorized.
Snowmobilers took a hard hit in the public relations dept a season or two ago when a snowmobiler ran over a dog sledder and left him for dead..(however on the other side he was rescued by snowmobilers.)
Around and around it goes... we have met many a person who use snow machines, friends included, though I am heartend the most when, like ourselves,we meet people who no longer use them.
Here in the east, where there are so many people I think we will lose more and more ground to them, but best not to give up without a struggle.
In the west it saddens me see how ineffectual things have been to try and regain our parks. Once something is given over to them it seems irretrievable......a lesson to be learned there, thats for sure, but no real surprise when you come to think about it.
I wouldn't fear "waking a sleeping gaint" to much on this one...off hand I would say we have ... "a snowballs chance in hell "... of being heard on this issue.
I believe they will continue to grow stronger and more demanding of their "rights".. yadda yadda etc.
That being said, in my family it was my mother who was the 1st to buy a snowmobile (in her 60's at the time) then later an AtV.. each one used to get back and forth to her house depending on the season. I would say the 1st thing we learned was the animosity snowmobilers have towards ATV's...it pales in comparison to how they feel about hikers.
Time moves on, my mother and snowmobiles have departed (as well as the one I owned) The AtV is used around our yard for plowing and yard work.and my recreation is non motorized.
Snowmobilers took a hard hit in the public relations dept a season or two ago when a snowmobiler ran over a dog sledder and left him for dead..(however on the other side he was rescued by snowmobilers.)
Around and around it goes... we have met many a person who use snow machines, friends included, though I am heartend the most when, like ourselves,we meet people who no longer use them.
Here in the east, where there are so many people I think we will lose more and more ground to them, but best not to give up without a struggle.
In the west it saddens me see how ineffectual things have been to try and regain our parks. Once something is given over to them it seems irretrievable......a lesson to be learned there, thats for sure, but no real surprise when you come to think about it.
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Blue
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Last weekend I walked along a stretch of the Rockingham Recreational Trail in southern NH to observe the number of ATVs and to document the conditions of the trai. This is a multi-use trail that stretches 18 miles and I walked around 3.5 in Derry. I'm writing a paper on this topic for a class, so I needed some data. I counted the number of times ATVs and motorcycles passed me and in 1.5 hours, that count was 54. There was also one runner and one hunter. I was surprised by two things: 1. the trail passes very close to a large pond east of Island Pond Road and 2. there were 3 separate areas of tire debris along the trail.
In 2003, Woodlot Alternatives developed a statewide plan for developing NH's trail systems for ATVs. They see a need to develop new trails based on a the growing numbers of registered ATVs. That plan is here.
I know these issues will continue to grow -- between non motorized recreationists, ORV owners, environmentalists and land owners. There are few studies around the impact of these vehicles specifically in the Northeast (other than Cape dune studies) and much more research is needed.
In 2003, Woodlot Alternatives developed a statewide plan for developing NH's trail systems for ATVs. They see a need to develop new trails based on a the growing numbers of registered ATVs. That plan is here.
I know these issues will continue to grow -- between non motorized recreationists, ORV owners, environmentalists and land owners. There are few studies around the impact of these vehicles specifically in the Northeast (other than Cape dune studies) and much more research is needed.
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forestgnome
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Even if the AMC had not marred the top of the notch with their sprawling luxury hotel, we would have the same problem. This situation arose from the opening of the Cog in winter.We would still be facing the threat of losing one of the most beatiful places for hiking.
The Highland Palace is there, but at least it doesn't polute the whole area with never ending stink and noise. Now we have to depend on the AMC to win a court battle for us "quiet types", so I'll be rooting for them. If they win, I'll cheer them, but if they loose, we loose.
I think I'll snowshoe up there tomorrow for what could be the last time.
If only the machines were all four-strokers, this wouldn't even matter to me. The noise will become of the environment from Mt Tom and Mt Field to Mt Webster, Mt Jackson and Mt Pierce.
The Highland Palace is there, but at least it doesn't polute the whole area with never ending stink and noise. Now we have to depend on the AMC to win a court battle for us "quiet types", so I'll be rooting for them. If they win, I'll cheer them, but if they loose, we loose.
I think I'll snowshoe up there tomorrow for what could be the last time.
If only the machines were all four-strokers, this wouldn't even matter to me. The noise will become of the environment from Mt Tom and Mt Field to Mt Webster, Mt Jackson and Mt Pierce.
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Waumbek
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stopher said:
Thanks Stopher. With limitations on speed and time of day, sledders can use the new route. (How are they going to enforce the 20 mph speed limit, I wonder?) The real decision has just been delayed until the judge figures out the tangled issue of ownership of the track corridor, a matter that stretches back to an 1869 deed. There will be more extended analysis of the legal issue in tomorrow's papers, I'm sure.
Mark_151
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