AMC -vs- the snowmobiles (Union Leader article)

[ChrisB]

Out of Spite??

Looking at the map accompanying that article, I gotta believe that whoever in the state planned this route was gunning for the AMC.

Afterall, when you encircle a hiking organization's facility with a snowmobile trail you must expect to get a rise out of them. Might be local politics at work.

I've heard the AMC was quite forcefull with the towns when seeking permits for the expansion at Highland.

cb

 

[ChrisB]

Dirt or Paved

I can't remember...

Is the Mount Clinton road dirt or pavement from 302 to the Base Road?

Maybe the sate feels a dirt road would not stand up to winter use and be costly to repair?

cb

 

[Mike P.]

It's paved but not as wide as most paved roads, not as wide as Base Road. Quite a bit of turns & surface is not all that smooth, a heavy plow blade like that used on the large orange (CT Orange) dump trucks would make a mess of the pavement.

My thought is that the sight lines for crossing a road like 302 would be better just west of the Notch in one of the Eisenhower Interstate Straightaways you then could come across the field below the parking lot for the dayhikers at the beginning of the Mt. Clinton Road & get on the road near there. I can't imagine sledders will be that happy with the Mt. Clinton Road either as you can't get the same speed up there as you could on the wider straighter Base Road.

On the other hand with the new access I'll probably plan a hike with people in early March to ascend Ammo & then head South over Ike & Pierce. If weather turns out to be real nice, maybe up Jewell & then south.

 

[afka_bob]

Santa Claus -vs- the Martians

Today's Union Leader has this update on the story. Both sides were heard by the judge who is expected to rule within the next two weeks.

[Here's that article, before it disappears into pay-per-view land:]

CONCORD — A judge yesterday heard the battle for and against an alternative to one of the state's oldest and most popular snowmobile trails.
The state Bureau of Trails has chosen a path that would go within 500 feet of the Appalachian Mountain Club's new $10 million Highland Center, a lodging and outdoor education center at the height of Crawford Notch in Carroll.

The trail would replace the 5-mile-long Base Road to Mount Washington's Cog Railway, which the state estimates sees 2,000 snowmobiles each week in winter months. The Cog will be running winter train service for the first time and needs the road for public vehicle access and for tanker trucks with oil to fuel the train.

The AMC went to court yesterday to stop the state, arguing that neither the Department of Transportation nor the Department of Resources and Economic Development gave it notice or a chance to have input as an abutter.

The AMC argued that day and night snowmobile noise, lights and smoke would ruin the tranquility that draws people to the mountains.
The club also argued it owns the land outside its doors that the state wants to use and has the deed to prove it. The state disputed that.

E. Paul Gray, chief supervisor of the state's Bureau of Trails, told Merrimack County Superior Court Judge Judge Edward Fitzgerald that the proposed route is the best alternative the state has to providing safe access to the thousands who flock to the southern slope of Mount Washington.

Gray said he followed state rules and was not required to provide public notice to anyone, nor abutter notice, because of a new law passed by the Legislature.

After a full day of arguments, Fitzgerald took the case under advisement and is expected to rule in the next two weeks.

In the meantime, the state and the AMC have come to a temporary agreement to halt construction on the proposed trail until the court acts.

The proposed trail follows the railbed from Fabyan's Station in Twin Mountain near the entrance to Bretton Woods ski area. It heads up to Crawford Notch and crosses Route 302 and then hugs the road for a brief distance to the Clinton Mountain Road, which will become a snowmobile route again to the Cog Base and will not be plowed.

The trail would run past AMC's newest facility, which opened in October 2003. It is an environmental education center and hostel with private rooms and bunks for about 120 people.

About 5,000 schoolchildren a year are estimated to use the education center on the former site of the Crawford House, which was built in 1827.

"We would really like to work with the state to find a reasonable solution to this, but really felt like we were completely left out of the process," said Walter Graff, deputy director of the AMC.

[end of Union Leader article]

 

[MadRiver]

I’m curious about a couple of points.

Since the AMC owns Highland and does not need a Special Use Permit to operate like their huts, can they restrict access to their facility to anyone they deem undesirable?

Can they also forbid snowmobiles from crossing or parking on their land?

Do snowmobilers have the right to operate anytime day or night on any designated snowmobile trail?

 

[Waumbek]

The Twin Mountain snowmobile club has an 11 p.m. curfew in "inhabited" areas. I think that's their policy, not law, and I don't know how they interpret "inhabited," i.e., a single house or hotel (such as Highland Center), a residential area, etc. It's interesting that the perspective I'm not hearing much about in news reports about this fight is snowmobile clubs. There are lots of them.

 

[ChrisB]

Cog on Oil?

Question:

If tankers are to supply the cog with oil, does that imply that the trains will not be running on coal this winter?

Or will the oil be used to heat the base station facilities only?

cb

 

[Waumbek]

oil-fired Cog

MtnMagic posted this March 2004 article from the Coos County Democrat on alpinezone:

"On Saturday morning March 6, 2004 the Cog Railway ran its first-ever official ski train to the Waumbek tank, elevation 3800'. About 100 skiiers, snowboarders and outdoor writers enjoyed the lavish hospitality of the Cog RR, the Mt Washington Hotel and the Bretton Woods Ski Area on a complimentary 3 day weekend "Cog Familiarity Trip."

At one point, skis and boards strapped to the south side of the passenger car pushed by the coal-fired #9 locomotive bumped into a tank pipe causing passengers to open the upper half of the Cog's windows and pull the gear inward to make the width an little narrower. One skier shouted, "This ride's interactive!"

At the bottom of the slope many down-hillers lined up for a repeat trip. Others headed indoors to Base Station for an antipasto and hot turkey lunch.

On Friday night in the Conseratory, wine and ale brewed by United Beverage and the Woodstock Station was served.

3 million dollars in improvements are being added to the Cog RR to convert the locomotives from burning coal to burning oil in the near future.

Since 1869, the Cog is the oldest mountain climbing train in the world and the only real ski train in the America's. For a skier the reason is simple: the uniqueness, the thrill, and the scenery. But for the tourists, a chance to watch skiers and experience Mt Washington in winter in heated comfort from an antique stream train.

A single ticket will likely cost $25 and an all day ticket, likely $59.

-----------------------
source: Coos County Democrat, Lancaster, NH, March 10, 2004"

 

[Stan]

Since the AMC owns Highland and does not need a Special Use Permit to operate like their huts, can they restrict assess to their facility to anyone they deem undesirable?

Can they also forbid snowmobiles from crossing or parking on their land?

I don't expect that the snowmobile route crosses AMC land, it just comes, what to some, annoyingly close. The route as I visualize it comes down the RR tracks and then cross 302 somewhere around the RR depot and parallels 302 somehow until it gets to Clinton Road.

If you are suggesting that snowmobilers are undesireable, then I question your judgement of people you don't even know. I think the AMC would be the last to call in the Undesireables Police. That might be illegal as well as undesireable. The AMC, the money club part of it, might find this a lucrative market ... and they could use all the goodwill they can get.

 

[MadRiver]

I seriously doubt the Highland Center would ever try and court the snowmobile market. With all due respect, they are antithetical to their target demographic.

By the way, if you want to see snowmobilers interact with non-snowmobilers, have dinner at the Common Man in Plymouth.

 

[Mike P.]

I believe the brushing & grading along base road was because they had intended to run the snowmobile trail along side the base road. They mentioned 200 sleds use that trail, usnure if that is a day, a week a month or a season but at best after plowing teh road all winter they might only have a single track along the road. It would look a lot like the pictures you see at the Yellowstone gates with all the sleds lined up.

The clubs (I imagine) promote ethical & safe riding, less like hunting or hiking for that matter, it's the few rogues who ignore curfew, hunt illegally/shoot first, or litter the trail.

I hope they come to some agreement that makes sense for everyone, Is there any threat of pollution around Saco or Ammo Lakes?

 

[Waumbek]

From today's Coos County Democrat (Lancaster NH)

Here's the Twin Mountain snowmobile club's perspective that's been missing in other news reports that I've seen:

"AMC goes to court over snowmobile trail
By Edith Tucker

CONCORD Ñ A new snowmobile trail that penetrates into the upper reaches of Crawford Notch has pitted the nonprofit Appalachian Mountain Club, which owns and operates the new Highland Center in the Bretton Woods section of Twin Mountain, against the state Trails Bureau, the Twin Mountain Snowmobile Club, and other state agencies.

AMC would like to stop the state Bureau of TrailsÕ initiative that is designed to open up the state-owned former Maine Central railroad tracks and Mt. Clinton Road to snowmobiles. The proposed route would run from FabyanÕs south to the Crawford Notch Depot, create a snowmobile crossing on Route 302 just south of the AMCÕs Highland Center complex, open a new snowmobile bridge over Gibbs Brook north to the Mt. Clinton Road, and then reserve that paved no-longer-plowed two-lane road for snowmobiles all the way to the ÒFour CornersÓ crossing at the Base and Jefferson Notch roads.

Two days before Thanksgiving (Nov. 23), the AMC filed a petition for a temporary restraining order and both a preliminary and permanent injunction against both the state Department of Resources and Economic Development (DRED), under which the Trails Bureau operates with in the Parks and Recreation Division, and the state Department of Transportation (NHDOT), under which the Bureau of Rails (which owns of the former state-owned Maine Central rail bed and leases it to the Conway Scenic Railway) operates.

AMC seeks to delay construction of this new top-of-Crawford-Notch route until there is a chance both for public input and to consider alternatives. The petition has been filed in Merrimack County Superior Court.

Superior Court Judge Edward Fitzgerald scheduled a hearing on the preliminary injunction request on Nov. 30 (yesterday).

After the petition was filed, both the state and AMC agreed that the State would immediately cease building the trail and advise the snowmobiling community that the trail is not open.

Would cut through AMC site
If completed, the new snowmobile loop route would run on rail tracks to cut through the AMCÕs 26-acre property on which the $9 million-plus three-building Highland Center complex stands.

The environmental and educational center offers childrenÕs educational programs, meeting, dining, and membersÕ space, and an array of non-motorized activities Ñ skiing, snowshoeing and winter hiking Ñ all of which would, in essence, be encircled by the snowmobile trail, pointed out AMC spokesman Rob Burbank.

The AMC claims that the state did not follow Òdue processÓ since it did not notify it Ñ an abutting landowner Ñ when it sought permission from the NHDOT to use the railroad, the Route 302 right-of-way, and the Mt. Clinton Road. Mr. Burbank said that the state did not consider the new trailÕs potential impacts on public safety and parking, or on Crawford NotchÕs historic and natural resources.

ÒThe AMC believes that safer and less disruptive alternatives to the proposed route exist but were not considered, including the recently built 12-foot-wide snowmobile trail that parallels the Base Road,Ó Mr. Burbank said. ÒThe petition seeks a permanent injunction based on the negative impact of the route on the operation of the Highland Center as an education and outdoor recreation center, including the safety of its users.Ó

Local club favors Mt. Clinton Road
On Saturday, Harold Garneau, who until recently was the Twin Mountain Snowmobile ClubÕs trailmaster, said that the Mt. Clinton Road better replicates the Base Road, since it, too, is a two-lane road that is wide enough to accommodate a large number of snow machinists traveling in both directions. (In previous years, the Base Road was unplowed and was used by snowmobilers.) The new just-built trail alongside the Base Road is only 12 feet wide, Mr. Garneau said.

He also noted that a second access to the Jefferson Notch Road (via the newly proposed trail) would also provide another access should the U. S. Forest Service conduct a timber harvest.

In addition, he said, opening up the rail bed would allow snowmobilers to access DarbyÕs Diner and the Lodge, a two-story motel owned and operated by the owner/partners of the Mount Washington Hotel.

Mr. Garneau said that hotel owner/partner Cathy Bedor has been eager to open up the rail bed for snowmobiles since it would increase the motelÕs appeal to snowmobilers. She has told Mr. Garneau that this route would also make it less likely that snowmobilers would cut through condominium association developments near the hotel. Communications with the hotel partners is relatively easy and informal because District I trails head Brad Presby is one of Mt. Washington owner/partner Wayne PresbyÕs brothers.

Mr. Garneau secured the selectmenÕs endorsement of the new route at the boardÕs Nov. 15 meeting, this, he said, at the request of Trails Bureau head Paul Grey. There is a big economic boost from the townÕs snowmobile trails, Mr. Garneau said.

Dr. Arthur Saxon, a Twin Mountain voter who lives in one of the Forest Cottages in the Bretton Woods section of town not far from the rail bed, adamantly opposes opening up the former Maine Central tracks to snowmobile traffic. The idea of listening to the whine of nightriders makes him cringe, he explained at SaturdayÕs craft fair at the Twin Mountain Town Hall.

Mr. Garneau said that residents in the Forest Cottages would not be able to hear travelers on the new route.

The Crawford Depot is listed on the National Register of Historic Places; the Crawford Path is a designated National Recreational Trail; and Route 302 is a designated National Scenic Byway.

AMC says it would like to work with state agencies and the U.S. Forest Service to find an alternative route that is safe and would not compromise the NotchÕs natural and scenic qualities.

ÒThe AMC is deeply concerned not only about the impact of the proposed route on natural and historic resources and non-motorized tourism in Crawford Notch, but also about safety issues related to the location of the dangerous highway crossing on US 302 and the impact on hikers, skiers and climbers needing to use the same rights of way to access trails,Ó Mr. Burbank said. ÒThe AMC recognizes the importance of snowmobiling to northern New Hampshire communities and believes that with appropriate public input, planning, and management motorized recreation trails can co-exist with non-motorized recreation. The Notch has been valued for generations by walkers, hikers, skiers, and tourists as a place of natural beauty.Ó

The AMC has been active in protecting land around Crawford Notch since its founding in 1876. It took filing a ÒRight to KnowÓ letter with DRED and NHDOT for AMC to confirm information about the proposed trail, Mr. Burbank said.

The State has already constructed a snowmobile bridge across Gibbs Brook, just below the designated Scenic Area that is marked by old growth forest.

AMC points out that DRED started building the new snowmobile trail at the upper end of Crawford Notch despite its summer and fall construction of a trail that parallels the Base Road that would allow continued access from FabyanÕs to the Jefferson Notch Road.

The Cog Railway ÒSki TrainÓ will be open for skiers and snowboarders this winter to a point just above the Waumbek Tank, and access to the Cog will be via the Base Road.

The AMC questions DREDÕs contention that this newly constructed alternative trail (alongside the Base Road) is inadequate for the anticipated traffic and that there are no other alternatives to the railroad-and-Mt. Clinton-Road route.

Because of AMCÕs long history in the Notch and the key role it has played in preserving its rugged scenic beauty, the Club believes its voice should be heard, said Mr. Burbank."

 

[stopher]

If AMC doesn't like the idea of a snowmobile trail looping around their facility, they have the option of offering a corridor along the west edge of their property. This would reduce the distance a sled would travel within sight and hearing of the Highland center and bring the sleds no closer. Otherwise, I don't see what they can do about it, unless they can prove they own the railroad bed. It's time for AMC to start acting like a good neighbor. It's no wonder many northcountry residents view the AMC as meddlesome outsiders.

OK, give me a second to put on my asbestos jumpsuit.

 

[Waumbek]

a rock and a hard place

This problem get knottier the more I understand the different sides of it. If you go back and look at the area map in the first post, there just does not seem to be a very good way to get snowmobiles to the Jefferson Notch Road, and I assume that's the fun part of the ride for the snow machinists. They apparently can't cut across WMNF and private land south of the Base Road, they can't go up and down the new 12-foot corridor beside the Base Road (although I think AMC disputes that), and if I remember correctly the terrain north of the Base Road is too hilly and also either WMNF or private land. The only state land or access is the railroad tracks and the Mt. Clinton Road, hence the looping around the Highland Hotel, which seems more pragmatic rather than vindictive now even if it still brings the machines very close to the HH. I doubt that there's much room to the west of the HH for the AMC to offer snowmobiles a corridor. This is really a rock-and-a-hard place situation. I can't visualize what's up north of Bretton Woods, though, that might connect into Jeff Notch Rd.

 

[RoySwkr]

Dr. xxx, a Twin Mountain voter who lives in one of the Forest Cottages in the Bretton Woods section of town not far from the rail bed, adamantly opposes opening up the former Maine Central tracks to snowmobile traffic.

This guy sounds like the people who buy a cheap house at the end of the runway and then want the airport to shut down. I have spent a lot of nights in a cabin farther down the notch to the S when MEC still ran diesel freights. They would travel slow and take several minutes to rumble by, and if it was NB the helper engines would then go back down a while later. Probably a RR track is the most appropriate place for noisy traffic.

This problem get knottier the more I understand the different sides of it. If you go back and look at the area map in the first post, there just does not seem to be a very good way to get snowmobiles to the Jefferson Notch Road, and I assume that's the fun part of the ride for the snow machinists. They apparently can't cut across WMNF and private land south of the Base Road

There are at least 2 possible routes on NF land as mentioned in my first note: N of Base Station Road and diagonally from RR to Mt Clinton Road say near the state hwy garage. Of course this would require EIS and public comment so the process should have been started last year to be in effect this winter.

 

[Mike P.]

Does the state of Fed Gov't own the rail beds? I thought that most railways & rail beds were Federal & it was easier to get Right of Ways on them which is one of the reasons Rail trails have become popular, less legitimate legal hassles even if people nearby cry NIMBY. There is still a process to follow but the Rail Bed to State Road even though it crosses or circumvents AMC land may be beyond AMC's control.

Would 2000 sleds a week be a burden on Saco & Ammo lakes pollution wise? (probably not since mostly air & noise unless sled leak & people litter) Since the Saco is a Salmon River (though in Saco, ME seems few return) maybe pollution issues offer possibility of re-routing?????

 

[MadRiver]

It seems like a number of people on this tread are taking great joy in the AMC’s current quandary. I wonder if the situation were theirs, how they would react. You come home one day to find that the once pristine track of woods behind your house is now being razed to make room for a dirt bike track that the little darlings of the community pushed through the town without opening it up for public discussion. It was a close door meeting between the local dirt bike club and town officials, without thought to how this might affect your home. After all, it is public land and the town can do whatever they want with the land. Regardless of how you feel about the AMC, this deal does smell of “payback”.

 

[afka_bob]

smells like...

Which begs the question, payback for what?

I have observed the AMC doing great good (from my perspective).

I have observed the AMC actingi mperiously as if it owned all of the WMNF -- which would probably work just fine for them if they actually did.

It also smells of (and others have observed this in this thread) not everybody is a hiker, some like to snowmobile.

 

[MadRiver]

If I were to pick one (although there are a few) issues for payback, I would think the tax exempt status of the AMC leads the list. A few local motel operators have pointed out (correctly, I might add) that the AMC got a sweetheart deal with the town when they built their hotel, so I’m sure a few people are taking great joy in their current situation.

Even though I do agree with you that the AMC takes an imperialistic attitude towards the Whites, I would rather have them here than not. By the way, the AMC isn’t the only “organization” as of late that has shown an imperialistic posture.

 

[afka_bob]

No, not the only one, but they're the one we were talking about.