http://www.unionleader.com/article/20160801/NEWHAMPSHIRE03/160739911&template=mobileart
Holy Cow! Just under six days to do all 48, unsupported!
Brian
Holy Cow! Just under six days to do all 48, unsupported!
Brian
Andrew Drummond sets new Direttissima record
- Thread starter B the Hiker
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Out of curiosity, where is the line between supported and unsupported as relates to people hiking with you? Is it like drafting in a time trial? You have to pass or fall back within a certain time interval.
Tim
Tim
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I believe Mats had people accompanying him on at least one attempt, (I believe successful) and he met a group of VFTT one evening during that attempt. He was careful not to accept anything from the group. There have been two person teams who also have done it, does that necessarily disqualify them? If one person is going for the record and someone is pacing them and supplying him or her material support like food that's a distinct line that has been crossed. The batteries stashing if true also seems to have crossed the line but that's the problem with any self proclaimed record without a sanctioning body in place with rules.
Some extremist could also advocate for true carry in and carry out and nowhere have I seen reference to someone carrying WAG bags
Some extremist could also advocate for true carry in and carry out and nowhere have I seen reference to someone carrying WAG bags
The addition of a "Solo unsupported" and a "Solo supported" categories would clean things up a bit. IMO the presence of someone with you whether it be the whole hike or a part of the hike constitutes potential moral support. I think it would be quite hard in The Whites this time of year not to meet up with other folks whom potentially could provide moral support solicited or unsolicited. I encourage others to check out Andrew's Facebook page and his snapchat videos. He clearly states his goals and objectives. Best of which to share his experiences with others where is when the stashed batteries come into play. He also clearly states his opinion of FKT. I also think his decisions were not unfortunate that he decided to ignore FKT. He had his own personal opinions and objectives. To be clear it is stated by the keeper of FKT where he stands on support for most stated by him that it is his opinion. Not to diminish other hikers accomplishments by any means that follow the FKT rule book but Andrew's accomplishment is something to be admired.
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Amicus
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Two people together the whole time count but one person with occasional company doesn't? Stashing a few batteries (AA I assume, weighing an ounce or so) DQs you? To paraphrase Charles Dickens: If those are the rules, the rules are a ass, a idiot. Hats off to Andrew for a remarkable feat.
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TCD
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Agree - hats off to all who attempt this!
I think the rules have to be whatever the rules are for the particular board you are posting on, like A&A said.
But my opinion is that stashing anything in advance is pretty "self supported" not "unsupported."
My opinion on company is that it has no impact, unless they provide PHYSICAL" help (like carrying extra water for you, for example. Just being there alongside you, to my mind, does not constitute support. In fact, it might hurt more than help. Anyone remember the famous scene from the 1970 movie "The Games" where the runner is delirious towards the end, and the coach is running alongside him screaming "Look! I can run faster than you!"
I think the rules have to be whatever the rules are for the particular board you are posting on, like A&A said.
But my opinion is that stashing anything in advance is pretty "self supported" not "unsupported."
My opinion on company is that it has no impact, unless they provide PHYSICAL" help (like carrying extra water for you, for example. Just being there alongside you, to my mind, does not constitute support. In fact, it might hurt more than help. Anyone remember the famous scene from the 1970 movie "The Games" where the runner is delirious towards the end, and the coach is running alongside him screaming "Look! I can run faster than you!"
IIRC, Mats decided his personal line would be accepting moral support, not material support. I believe there also was one beer that he filed under moral support.
Do what you will, but be honest and specific about what you did. Pre-caching definitely isn't "unsupported" in my book nor, I suspect, just about anybody else's. Dropping pack and coming back is fine in my book.
DayTrip
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I get all the points about unsupported versus self supported but the guy blew the doors off the record by 56 hours according to the article. Some stashed batteries and having a few people join him in places for conversation hardly seems like huge factors that led to this 56 hour gap. It's a hell of an accomplishment no matter what category you want to put it in.
Snowflea
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From the FKT site, http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/19/read-first (A&A, you have been leaving out the 's' on proboards so the link is not working)...
[*]Unsupported means you have no external support of any kind. Typically, this means that you must carry all your supplies right from the start, except any water that can be obtained along the way from natural sources. This approach has also been termed "alpine style". For most people, carrying enough food for more than a few days to one week will be prohibitive. Unsupported also means unaccompanied! (i.e., no pacers) Further note: Some people get really crazy about what does or does not fit into "unsupported". I've had long conversations about this especially with Jeff List, who very thoroughly documented the opinions I expressed here[*]
Flummoxed as to why he didn't just carry the damn batteries I have to agree that this effort was not truly unsupported. Regardless, an impressive time.
Sue, who is happy to have done a recent Direttissima http://www.runsuerun.blogspot.com for fun... supported, with an awesome route, 37 peaks solo, and no media involvement ...
[*]Unsupported means you have no external support of any kind. Typically, this means that you must carry all your supplies right from the start, except any water that can be obtained along the way from natural sources. This approach has also been termed "alpine style". For most people, carrying enough food for more than a few days to one week will be prohibitive. Unsupported also means unaccompanied! (i.e., no pacers) Further note: Some people get really crazy about what does or does not fit into "unsupported". I've had long conversations about this especially with Jeff List, who very thoroughly documented the opinions I expressed here[*]
Flummoxed as to why he didn't just carry the damn batteries
I have to agree that this effort was not truly unsupported. Regardless, an impressive time.Sue, who is happy to have done a recent Direttissima http://www.runsuerun.blogspot.com for fun... supported, with an awesome route, 37 peaks solo, and no media involvement ...
From the FKT site, http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/19/read-first (A&A, you have been leaving out the 's' on proboards so the link is not working)...
[*]Unsupported means you have no external support of any kind. Typically, this means that you must carry all your supplies right from the start, except any water that can be obtained along the way from natural sources. This approach has also been termed "alpine style". For most people, carrying enough food for more than a few days to one week will be prohibitive. Unsupported also means unaccompanied! (i.e., no pacers) Further note: Some people get really crazy about what does or does not fit into "unsupported". I've had long conversations about this especially with Jeff List, who very thoroughly documented the opinions I expressed here[*]
Flummoxed as to why he didn't just carry the damn batteries
Sue, who is happy to have done a recent Direttissima http://www.runsuerun.blogspot.com for fun... supported, with an awesome route, 37 peaks solo, and no media involvement ...
Any of the times and results leave me beyond impressed. Hard for me to fathom, so kudos to all.
If I understand the above correctly, highlighting this, that means that any tandem efforts are considered 'supported' as well? Meaning, solo only. If that's the case, if two people do it together, it wouldn't count? How far apart do they need to be, and can they connect at night?
I'm not a rules or list guy, so I find this interesting. Like I said, though...either way, fantastic work! (I read Sue's blog a few days ago, very nicely done)
Raven
Well-known member
That is a truly impressive accomplishment, like any time anyone does the WM Diretissima. Congratulatons.
My opinion as a holder of the FKT from my shed to house after unleashing a swarm of yellowjackets, is this.
1. If you stash batteries, it's self-supported. There's no grey area on that as far as I can tell. One battery or 50 pounds of food and a blanket, it's support. I think we are all basically on the same page on that one.
2. Regarding moral support and accompaniment, this is not so easy to draw a line. One end is pure solo and one is having a partner. In between, if a friend joins you by design/plan for a quarter mile, that's support. A dog is support. If you run into a friend unexpectedly and decide to hike with him/her, that's support. If however, people recognize you and want to cheer you on, congratulate you, send you well wishes, etc, that is NOT support in my mind, as long as you don't take that Tootsie Roll they are offering you...
3. I have been working on the W48 solo over the years, and the definition of "solo" comes into play. If the rules are such that you cannot interact with another person, the Whites are beyond soloing anything on the 48 (Winter Tuesdays aside). If I break trail for awhile with another stranger, it's no longer solo. If we say hi, exchange pleasantries, and go our separate ways, it's solo. If people are hiking with you and encouraging you, this is where it becomes moral support in my mind. The hiker may have to actually remove him/herself from those situations to maintain the goal.
An amazing accomplishment. Really. I am however, like Stinkyfeet, left very curious as to why he chose to stash such a small amount and clearly change the nature of the hike over a couple batteries?
Well done. Hopefully the accomplishment does not get mired in BS. A&A - congrats on your hike as well - really admirable!
My opinion as a holder of the FKT from my shed to house after unleashing a swarm of yellowjackets, is this.
1. If you stash batteries, it's self-supported. There's no grey area on that as far as I can tell. One battery or 50 pounds of food and a blanket, it's support. I think we are all basically on the same page on that one.
2. Regarding moral support and accompaniment, this is not so easy to draw a line. One end is pure solo and one is having a partner. In between, if a friend joins you by design/plan for a quarter mile, that's support. A dog is support. If you run into a friend unexpectedly and decide to hike with him/her, that's support. If however, people recognize you and want to cheer you on, congratulate you, send you well wishes, etc, that is NOT support in my mind, as long as you don't take that Tootsie Roll they are offering you...
3. I have been working on the W48 solo over the years, and the definition of "solo" comes into play. If the rules are such that you cannot interact with another person, the Whites are beyond soloing anything on the 48 (Winter Tuesdays aside). If I break trail for awhile with another stranger, it's no longer solo. If we say hi, exchange pleasantries, and go our separate ways, it's solo. If people are hiking with you and encouraging you, this is where it becomes moral support in my mind. The hiker may have to actually remove him/herself from those situations to maintain the goal.
An amazing accomplishment. Really. I am however, like Stinkyfeet, left very curious as to why he chose to stash such a small amount and clearly change the nature of the hike over a couple batteries?
Well done. Hopefully the accomplishment does not get mired in BS. A&A - congrats on your hike as well - really admirable!
This is coming across differently than I intend to, so preemptively I'll apologize...but...how could someone hiking with someone for a stretch be considered "supported", but hiking with someone the entire time not?
Stan
Well-known member
I admire, if not envy, the physical ability and willpower to do this but quite frankly, find such competitive fetes antithetical to my purpose and manner of enjoying the mountains. Sort of like celebrating NASCAR just because I like scenic drives.
Besides, what's so direttissima about it ... it is a complicated route and network engineers could probably come up with all sorts of variations.
And the "supported" thing, sounds like that can be pretty nitpicking but rules are rules.
Meanwhile, congratulations to all who do such things, competitively or not ... and especially to those who do it strictly for their own satisfaction.
Besides, what's so direttissima about it ... it is a complicated route and network engineers could probably come up with all sorts of variations.
And the "supported" thing, sounds like that can be pretty nitpicking but rules are rules.
Meanwhile, congratulations to all who do such things, competitively or not ... and especially to those who do it strictly for their own satisfaction.
Perhaps you struggle with the blanket assumption that anyone joining for part of the time would serve as a pacer. I think the assumption is that people doing these feats could benefit from someone pacing them, so to avoid any gray area, it's all or none. Certainly if I hiked with someone for part of their attempt, the claim of me being a pacer would be laughable. I've been told I help people go slower, actually.
Is it? In theory, one could be stronger than the other, and wouldn't do it if the other was with them the entire time (talking out a plan, maybe pulling someone up over a steep ledge, reaching into their pack vs. having to take yours off, etc.). Seems more "support" could be offered there than grabbing a couple of AA's batteries.
Trying to understand the hair-splitting on all of these great accomplishments.
jfb
Active member
I don't find it hard to understand. Some do it solo, some do it as a team. Those who do it as a team should not claim that they did it solo. Likewise, those who do it supported should not claim to have done it unsupported. I would not want to be on the jury that decides the difference between the categories.
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Different strengths in a team still mean the the team has to finish and likely they don't take the time of the first person to finish. Since the Olympics are coming, and that's the only time you'll see track cycling on TV in this US of A, it's important to note that in the 4-person pursuit, the time is taken for the 3rd rider to cross, meaning you can drop one person if they are slowing you down, but not 2. Team time trial times in the three major tours are all taken at the third rider as well.
The "weakest link in the chain" analogy applies here, methinks.
Like most of the claimed FKTs, they are all self-reported and honor system. There used to be a site called www.digitalepo.com that would let you juice up your gpx tracks after the fact. It appears to be gone for the time being.
Tim
The "weakest link in the chain" analogy applies here, methinks.
Like most of the claimed FKTs, they are all self-reported and honor system. There used to be a site called www.digitalepo.com that would let you juice up your gpx tracks after the fact. It appears to be gone for the time being.
Tim
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